Lithium Positive and Negative Insurers

[mjcp]

I can see the logic in that point. What does CE mean. I reckon if the cells are CE marked, the BMS is CE marked and the assembled cells are connected in a designed manner for the current ratings, then it complies with the insurance company’s requirements. They of course, might disagree and believe that the assembled battery shall be CE approved. Likely they want the user to buy a pre approved battery, minimising their risk.

It’s an interesting point being made, especially in a UK jurisdiction that doesn’t require CE marking (I think).

Which is full circle back to (CE) " ...is a requirement in order to sell products in the EU, but is not a quality standard or other compatibility statement." and " It does not mean it will work with any other system you connect it to. It might. It might not. They haven't tested it and do not attest that it will..."

The insurance company probably thinks a CE mark = some sort of quality standard, it is not, it is a paperwork exercise (that in some cases may include attestation to a physical standard(s).

As others have said, building System 1 by adding Product 1 (CE) and product 2 (CE) does NOT make System 1 (CE).

To Paul's point: he supplies CE cells (i.e. individual batteries) with a CE mark - compliant to the letter of the text. (There being no definition of a battery - i.e. each cell is a battery on its own, with a CE mark. Now, a string of cells could also be a battery, but to the text, it askes for the battery to be CE, which in component form it is. the resulting installation is a system, not just a battery - So out of scope of the text. In CE speak, its a system ... which the text does not require a CE for.

 

[ylop]

A cell is a battery.

Colloquially we use the terms interchangeably but technically a battery is actually a collection of cells. That’s why I made the point - you’d want to be clear which sense N&G used the word battery.

 

[ylop]

Which is full circle back to (CE) " ...is a requirement in order to sell products in the EU, but is not a quality standard or other compatibility statement." and " It does not mean it will work with any other system you connect it to. It might. It might not. They haven't tested it and do not attest that it will..."

The insurance company probably thinks a CE mark = some sort of quality standard, it is not, it is a paperwork exercise (that in some cases may include attestation to a physical standard(s).

There’s some merit in what you say about CE marks but I think the Battery Regs require notified body approval and testing, along with quality management systems for at least some battery types. Does every battery with a CE mark actually comply? Probably not, but that in itself isn’t a failure of the regulations - it’s a failure of enforcement authorities to clamp down on dodgy companies cutting corners. It’s a common complaint when regulations come to new product sectors that it adds cost and complexity - but 90% of it is stuff you’d expect credible manufacturers to be doing anyway.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Colloquially we use the terms interchangeably but technically a battery is actually a collection of cells. That’s why I made the point - you’d want to be clear which sense N&G used the word battery.

Not so, a battery can be a single cell. Ever seen an AA battery ?

 

[ylop]

Not so, a battery can be a single cell. Ever seen an AA battery ?

Of course I have - but technically (to the electrochemists who make them rather than the marketing people who sell them) an AA "battery" is a cell not a battery. Which is why I'm suggesting caution when assuming you know what was meant by "battery". I've just checked and the EU Regs have multiple detailed definitions for "Battery Cell", "Battery Pack", "Battery Module" and "Battery" and many other terms. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just think its important that nobody assumes that they know what N&G actually said never mind meant. Based on my discussions with underwriters on other topics its quite possible the person who said it has never seen a battery installation on a boat. What they don't like is "out of the ordinary" because it's hard to assess the risks.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

What they don't like is "out of the ordinary" because it's hard to assess the risks.

This is exactly the point. Insurers depend on assessments of risk. If there's plenty of experience, they can assess the risk and charge appropriately. But without that information they don't know what to charge. Any new technology that has the potential for causing serious damage will be in the same position. Batteries (including lead acid!) are intrinsically potential sources of fire hazards - not because of the chemistry, but because they store substantial amounts of energy in a form that can be released rapidly - everyone has heard of the effects of dropping a spanner across the terminals of a battery, and 12v batteries can be used for welding! Lead acid batteries don't contain flammable materials, so they might release noxious chemicals or cause an external fire, but lithium is flammable. I very much doubt whether insurers have enough information to distinguish different chemistries.

 

[lustyd]

Lead acid batteries don't contain flammable materials

They off-gas hydrogen and oxygen in perfect ratios when over charged and contain enormous quantities of both.

 

[PaulRainbow]

They off-gas hydrogen and oxygen in perfect ratios when over charged and contain enormous quantities of both.

I've been told they cannot explode.



I disagree

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I've been told they cannot explode.

View attachment 208108

I disagree

But almost certainly a steam explosion caused by an internal short circuit. Hydrogen diffuses so rapidly, through even apparently sealed containers, that the chances of enough accumulating to explode are minimal.

 

[billskip]

But almost certainly a steam explosion caused by an internal short circuit. Hydrogen diffuses so rapidly, through even apparently sealed containers, that the chances of enough accumulating to explode are minimal.

Don't you believe it...

 

[PaulRainbow]

But almost certainly a steam explosion caused by an internal short circuit. Hydrogen diffuses so rapidly, through even apparently sealed containers, that the chances of enough accumulating to explode are minimal.

I have personally seen a LA battery explode as a result of a spark while the battery was on charge and i know of 2 people who have had batteries explode under the seats of Ford Transit vans.

 

[PWLS08]

Not so, a battery can be a single cell. Ever seen an AA battery ?

Whoever tried to teach you O Level physics didn't do well. You'll be claiming the kilograms are the units of weight next.

 

[lustyd]

Paul is correct that a single cell is referred to commonly as a battery.
This isn’t a physics exam, it’s language.

 

[Lewis_56]

Visicover ignored two queries from two separate email accounts sent a week apart. So i assume they are anti DIY lithium.

Ignite Insurance brokers also require confirmation of "professional" installation.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Whoever tried to teach you O Level physics didn't do well. You'll be claiming the kilograms are the units of weight next.

What has physics got to do with it ?

There are millions of single cell batteries.

There are millions of boats with multiple batteries connected in series, parallel or a combination of both. Batteries fitted to boats have a varying number of cells. Connecting them together does not invalidate any CE certification they have.

How about a boat with 6x2V batteries, all single cell ?

 

[ylop]

Visicover ignored two queries from two separate email accounts sent a week apart. So i assume they are anti DIY lithium.

Ignite Insurance brokers also require confirmation of "professional" installation.

Did you try to get a quote? Routine stuff is all “online” but if you want anything out of the ordinary - by ticking or unticking the relevant box you either just get a simple premium increase OR the request is referred for underwriter approval - I don’t think that’s ever taken more that 24hrs.

 

[Lewis_56]

No, i assumed that any professional company would reply to a simple email.

I just requested a quote, but personally i don't trust companies that ignore emails as it indicates what they could do during a claim.

 

[ylop]

No, i assumed that any professional company would reply to a simple email.

I just requested a quote, but personally i don't trust companies that ignore emails as it indicates what they could do during a claim.

As an actual customer they’ve replied to every email I’ve sent them within 24 hours. My questions are clear about a specific policy with all the details rather than speculative. I can’t find anything specific in my policy (underwritten by Allianz) which mentions lithium or diy electrics. It does require you to inform them of modifications, but as far as I could see from reading it the only specific exclusion is structural modifications.

They are set up as a business to use their web quote process rather than deal with emails - which might be why they are often cheaper than someone who is answering speculative emails. When I have emailed them they have on two out of three occasions explained where on their web form I should be ticking. The other time they called me back to clarify something.

I’m not here to do a sales job for them but it seems like they MIGHT actually offer a product you want if you are willing to adapt to their approach, when ironically most of the providers who work the way you want simply say no.

 

[Lewis_56]

Visicover require "professional to have a look at the installation and sign this off"

 

[Lewis_56]

Velos also require "professionally installed by a qualified contractor"