PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
So why ignore the rule and post AI ?
Would take more time than i have to spare.
Lithium battery fire
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I don't know whose posts you are reading - but maybe you have simply taken a dislike to me and are letting your imagination take hold
I have never mentioned thermal runaway nor heat in wiring or battery chemistry - in fact I have not speculated on why the batteries might have caught fire. My technical input has been ---- zero - which seems to diminish the credibility of your criticisms. At least AI bases their results on published information - you seem to be polishing the art of fabricate
I did speculate on why a truck full of batteries was travelling, toward Melbourne, from Sydney when it would more sensible to ship direct to Melbourne (by sea)
I might agree with William - there are new grants for battery installations.
Jonathan
Buck Turgidson
Well-Known Member
"At least AI bases their results on published information"
Sorry to have to inform you that this is not correct.
The LLM of your chosen "AI" has simply used whatever it can scrape to lean how to construct sentences. It used published information to lean word patterns and nothing else.
AI is completely unreliable as a source of information. It even suffers from what is described as hallucination. and this is how ChatGPT describe it:
"
LLM hallucination is when a large language model generates confident, fluent information that is incorrect, fabricated, or not supported by evidence—often because it is predicting plausible text rather than recalling verified facts.
In short: it sounds right, but it isn’t true."
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
There's a whole lot of that, in here, at times.....
We sorely need an AI+ prompt which will 'separate the wheat from the chaff' in so-called meedja like this.
Ceirwan
Well-Known Member
This is unfortunately, not correct, there are many articles out there that you can read that sum this issue up far better than I could, and with a greater understanding.
But while AI is useful tool, it cannot be relied on as a source of information.
Here is one notable example:
High court tells UK lawyers to stop misuse of AI after fake case-law citations
The AI tool essentially made up legal precedents and quotes, they all sounded very plausible, because that's what it excels as.
As a personal example, when I asked it to summarise a sports season last year, the top persons it listed included people long retired, and some who were actually no longer alive!
So yes, very useful in some situations, but not to be relied on.
And remember its trained on data from all over, some is given higher importance, but its entirely possible previous topics on here and other forums have been scraped and used to train it.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Wish they did that here .... Govt here capped our use of storage batterys and size of the arrays installed - as the Electricity Supply Co's were losing revenue.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
None of this shows LFP to be dangerous in any way. Spreading this kind of FUD is unhelpful and is causing people to worry about upgrading to safer battery systems.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Nor have you explained the purpose of the thread. You posted a general news story in a boating forum. The story doesn’t relate to boats or boat batteries in any way so whatever your speculation here it doesn’t belong on the forum. We’ve had lots of lithium conspiracy threads of late whose only purpose seems to be spreading misinformation about modern batteries.
LFP is safe. There simply isn’t much more to say on the subject. At this point not only are they tried and tested, they’ve been tried and tested for years by people on this forum. Zero reports of any kind to suggest there is any danger.
I’ll ask again, what is your agenda in posting this?
stranded
Well-Known Member
One of those nearly caused a fire in my underpants many years ago when I put one in my pocket with a bunch of keys.
st599
Well-Known Member
I didn't say it was dangerous, I said that it's safer than other Li-ion chemistries provided mitigation for overcharging, over current, over heating etc. is in place.
What is dangerous is thinking that you can use them as a drop in replacement without circuit changes.
Personally, I have to follow the coding rules, and I would need a structural change to use them, so at present don't.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Specifically in what way is that dangerous? The changes are to ensure a good long life for the battery, but aside from potentially killing an alternator there’s no actual danger in a drop in replacement. A good fuse is advisable, but then that’s needed either way.
st599
Well-Known Member
I would say that correct fusing is essential rather than advisable. Also you need a BMS and charging infrastructure designed for LiFePO4.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Those are good to have but it certainly isn't dangerous without them, the cells will degrade faster but the boat would be safe.
Yes, proper fusing is an important aspect for any battery chemistry including lead. The danger is the same with either, shorting causes heat and therefore fire. That’s not a chemistry issue it’s usually a muppet with a spanner issue.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
I have a mark on my leg from years ago ... an AA NiCd in pocket - similar reason ..
geem
Well-Known Member
In 2023, the ABYC technical department tested the hell out of lifepo4 batteries to try and recreate some of the potential fire scenarios you hear about on forums and more widely on the Internet.
The reality is that they couldn't cause a fire in a number of drop in lifepo4 batteries, and these guys are experts at destoying stuff in the name of testing. They tested expensive batteries from reputable manufacturers and cheap and nasty ones from unheard of manufacturers. They even put a lifepo4 battery into a fire to see if it added to the fire but it didn't. The only way they could get smoke from one was to hammer two long nails into one. That release of gas didn't cause a fire.
Regardless of the scaremongering on forum like this, there are 10s of thousands of lifepo4 batteries installed on boats around the world. Some will be perfectly installed by knowledgeable people and some won't. There is no evidence that lifepo4 batteries cause fires. None.
Large battery installations have the capacity to produce large current in a fault condition. FLA batteries with bad connections can produce sparks and high current in a short.
Lifepo4 batteries can do this but more so. They have very low internal resistance compared to lead batteries. Dropping a lifepo4 battery into a 40 year old electrical system with old wiring, corroded connectors, inadequate battery isolation, no fuses or the wrong fuses can cause problems.
To create fire, you need heat and duration. A quick spark in an electric circuit from a bad connection may not be a big issue apart from your electronics playing up.
If you install lifepo4 batteries and do what we and many other have done and take real advantage of the tech, there is the increased risk of fire in a badly designed and installed electric system. It's not the batteries that are the problem in my view, it's the electrical system around it. When previously the biggest load on your boat would be the bow thruster with a duration of a couple of minutes, we are now in a scenario where electric cooking with large 3 to 5kw inverters, immersion heaters or in the tropics air conditioning loads. We are seeing large current and long duration from large lithium batteries. Any bad wiring will show up with very high heat with sufficient duration to set fire to anything combustible near that source of heat.
The recent news about the Battleborn battery with a badly installed and designed +ve terminal showed very high temperature when tested under very high current. Because there is nothing combustible in the proximity to it, there doesn't seem to have been any reports of fire. There was nothing in the battery to burn, only lifepo4 cells and some plastic that melted. It's a testimony to lifepo4 cells in a high temperature environment. No fire. No thermal runaway.
Sandydog2
Well-Known Member
I haven’t seen any reports that said the batteries on the Australian truck caused the fire. Online comments from the local community say it was most likely the trailer brakes overheating. Obviously speculation but no one has a more likely theory.
They are full of praise for the driver getting into the middle of the highway and managing to decouple the second trailer.
The fire brigade were able to let it burn itself out because of the driver’s actions. They also mentioned there was little water there to fight the fire, but also that they didn’t want to do that anyway as the toxins would have washed into a much bigger area.
They are full of praise for the driver getting into the middle of the highway and managing to decouple the second trailer.
The fire brigade were able to let it burn itself out because of the driver’s actions. They also mentioned there was little water there to fight the fire, but also that they didn’t want to do that anyway as the toxins would have washed into a much bigger area.