Lithium battery conversion

[PaulRainbow]

The batteries last a very long time I don't think it is worth making your own. Victron have brilliant inteligent batteries and they talk to the Victron eco system and whats more the system will be fully supported by a world wide dealer network. A further consideration is your insurer, they are more likely to be happy with an all Victron system than something you have constructed yourself. A short term saving might work out more expensive in the end.

We have done thing and it is a game changer. The huge benefit is the efficiency of charging rather than the additional capacity. The batteries charge in engine, shore power, solar and generator. We hardly need to run the generator now.

It isn't "making your own", it's just a case of connecting the cells together, no difference to connecting a few lead acid batteries in parallel.

Victron don't make LifeP04 batteries, they are assembled with cells from other manufacturers, into very expensive blue boxes. £1500 for 330ah ? Really ?

The vast majority of insurers aren't interested in LifeP04.

 

[geem]

The batteries last a very long time I don't think it is worth making your own. Victron have brilliant inteligent batteries and they talk to the Victron eco system and whats more the system will be fully supported by a world wide dealer network. A further consideration is your insurer, they are more likely to be happy with an all Victron system than something you have constructed yourself. A short term saving might work out more expensive in the end.

We have done thing and it is a game changer. The huge benefit is the efficiency of charging rather than the additional capacity. The batteries charge in engine, shore power, solar and generator. We hardly need to run the generator now.

It sounds to me like you are trying to justify why you spent a fortune buying Victron batteries when you can build your own for a fraction of the cost and still have the same life expectancy and capacity.
No problem with Pantaenius insurance.
How do you think your very expensive system will work out cheaper than mine, in the end?
I saw a video of a strip down of a failed Victron lithium battery. The cells are the same blue wrapped type as cells available online. Nothing special. I found the spec on the cells and they did no more than EVE cells which are just run of the mill. Victron do some nice kit but the battery cells are no better than cells you can buy for DIY. They also make poor DC/DC chargers, so they are not perfect. I have had some MPPT failures as well. The only good thing is their 5 year warranty does work and the kit was replaced quickly.
Victron only do a 3 year warrant on batteries. Since your batteries should last far longer than 3 years, what will you do if you have a bad cell in 4 years time? I can change mine. Ditto the BMS. How does that make your Victron system cheaper, in the end?

 

[Neeves]

Build your own. I just finished this one. 280Ah at 24v. 45kg weight. A useful capacity, equivalent to about 1000Ah of lead at 12v. 450x 350mm foot print
View attachment 184417

Geem,

Your new battery looks really neat - you must have done it before, practice makes perfect.

I assume the network of red wires over the top of the battery are the wiring for the BMS. Is the web of the BMS that passes through the handle in the blue encasement the best way or could it be neatened up to avoid any damage.

I wonder if you have left the BMS wiring 'open' and accessible for a reason?

Will the battery have a 'lid' on top, again to protect the bus bars and terminals?

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

Geem,

Your new battery looks really neat - you must have done it before, practice makes perfect.

I assume the network of red wires over the top of the battery are the wiring for the BMS. Is the web of the BMS that passes through the handle in the blue encasement the best way or could it be neatened up to avoid any damage.

I wonder if you have left the BMS wiring 'open' and accessible for a reason?

Will the battery have a 'lid' on top, again to protect the bus bars and terminals?

Jonathan

I'd be interested to see how you did yours Jonathan, can you post some pics please ?

 

[Neeves]

I'd be interested to see how you did yours Jonathan, can you post some pics please ?

No.

Why do you think I have built my own battery? I've never mentioned that I've built a battery.

 

[geem]

Geem,

Your new battery looks really neat - you must have done it before, practice makes perfect.

I assume the network of red wires over the top of the battery are the wiring for the BMS. Is the web of the BMS that passes through the handle in the blue encasement the best way or could it be neatened up to avoid any damage.

I wonder if you have left the BMS wiring 'open' and accessible for a reason?

Will the battery have a 'lid' on top, again to protect the bus bars and terminals?

Jonathan

I will probably move the bms onto the battery box bulkhead when I take the battery to the boat. The BMS mounting on the compression plate is temporary whilst I charged, balanced and tested the battery at home.
There is a perspex lid that isn't fitted in the photo

 

[rogerthebodger]

Geem

Please can you point me in the direction of where you purchased your Lithium cells from and the BMS unit you used so I can see what the cost of shipping the items to me

Is the compression box anything special and would it be possible to build my own so the cells can be fitted in the space I have

PM me if you don't with to publish the info here.

 

[Neeves]

I will probably move the bms onto the battery box bulkhead when I take the battery to the boat. The BMS mounting on the compression plate is temporary whilst I charged, balanced and tested the battery at home.
There is a perspex lid that isn't fitted in the photo

You battery is seriously neat - I like it!

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Geem

Please can you point me in the direction of where you purchased your Lithium cells from and the BMS unit you used so I can see what the cost of shipping the items to me

Is the compression box anything special and would it be possible to build my own so the cells can be fitted in the space I have

PM me if you don't with to publish the info here.

Fogstar in the UK sell cells. They also sell JK bms.
I made my compression plates from 25mm cutting board. 6mm threaded rod does the compression. It's covered with hydraulic tube to insulate it. You need isolator plates between cells as well. Also add some 3mm perspex to the top to stop anything landing on the cell terminals and creating a short

 

[rogerthebodger]

Fogstar in the UK sell cells. They also sell JK bms.
I made my compression plates from 25mm cutting board. 6mm threaded rod does the compression. It's covered with hydraulic tube to insulate it. You need isolator plates between cells as well. Also add some 3mm perspex to the top to stop anything landing on the cell terminals and creating a short

Thanks geem

Any Engineering I can do as I have a full Engineering workshop at home where I do stainless steel, MS and plastic HDPE / Perspex fabrication.

We also have lots of small Engineering workshops near where I live as we are in a gold mining area.

Do you know if the same batteries are available from China as most cone from Chins anyway and we are quite close to China and South Africa is part of BRICS and a friend imports a lot from China anyway

Fagstar are very close to where I used to live in the UK. I went to school just north of Bromsgrove and in Catshill and used to cycle to Redditch

 

[geem]

Thanks geem

Any Engineering I can do as I have a full Engineering workshop at home where I do stainless steel, MS and plastic HDPE / Perspex fabrication.

We also have lots of small Engineering workshops near where I live as we are in a gold mining area.

Do you know if the same batteries are available from China as most cone from Chins anyway and we are quite close to China and South Africa is part of BRICS and a friend imports a lot from China anyway

Fagstar are very close to where I used to live in the UK. I went to school just north of Bromsgrove and in Catshill and used to cycle to Redditch

90% of lithium cells are Chinese origin. The difficulty seems to be finding a reputable company who is honest. Can't help you there

 

[rogerthebodger]

90% of lithium cells are Chinese origin. The difficulty seems to be finding a reputable company who is honest. Can't help you there

Yes that is my concern

Fagstar seem to have a drift range and a drift ECO which look like LiFi4PO

I am looking at 12 V 300Ah x 2 to give 600 Ah so I can drive my Bow thruster

The BMS seem to be able to supply close to that current.

The drift seems to cost 722 GBP for 300 Ah
The Drift ECO seem to cost 499.99 GBP for 305 Ah
The Drift PRO seem to cost 950 GBP for 300 Ah

Which on do you have and why did you select the one you did

must look at the spec sheets in detail then consider shipping costs

I also see that fogstar are bring out a 12Vdc DIY setup where the 315 Ah will cost 450 GBP Again LiFe4 PO

Aby one any comment

 

[geem]

Yes that is my concern

Fagstar seem to have a drift range and a drift ECO which look like LiFi4PO

I am looking at 12 V 300Ah x 2 to give 600 Ah so I can drive my Bow thruster

The BMS seem to be able to supply close to that current.

The drift seems to cost 722 GBP for 300 Ah
The Drift ECO seem to cost 499.99 GBP for 305 Ah
The Drift PRO seem to cost 950 GBP for 300 Ah

Which on do you have and why did you select the one you did

must look at the spec sheets in detail then consider shipping costs

I don't have any of those. I bought my latest cells from Fogstar and built my own battery. I have built several batteries now. Some for friends and some for me

 

[Trident]

Fogstar sell individual EVE cells as well as batteries made from them. The issue may well be shipping them if you want them overseas as I believe they only have a Dangerous Goods License with Fed Ex for the UK.

I have had dozens from them and they are always perfect, properly certificated and delivered promptly .

As for the idea that Victron LiFePo4 are better in any way that's just a joke. They are 3 times the price of DIY, the BMS has just this month been upgraded to a new one because the old one was not really very good and there is zero advantage to having the BMS integrated into the Victron biosphere . I now have Victron MPPT, ACDC charger, Smart Shunt and Inverter and those being in a Smart Network is great - the MPPT all work together so that there is perfect charging and coordinated change from bulk to float on all 4 MPPT from all 4 panel banks . There is nothing that the BMS can add to the equation and the JK BMS is better than the Victron - the protection level and self balancing is currently the best available. My 1200 ah bank cost me less than 300 ah with Victron and is lighter and smaller . Victron to many things very well and there is nothing wrong with their batteries but they are not the best and are over priced. I would say the same about their DCDC chargers too . I am though very happy with all my Victron kits and have fitted it professionally to dozens or hundreds of boats without issue so I have nothing against them .

 

[rogerthebodger]

I don't have any of those. I bought my latest cells from Fogstar and built my own battery. I have built several batteries now. Some for friends and some for me

Are your cells the EVE cells as mentioned by Trident as there seems to be a local company who stock EVE cells and also have JK BMS units of various types.

Once I have decided with pricing and supply, I hope that the boss lady will allow the purchase as I have been fixing up her irrigation system

 

[PaulRainbow]

Yes that is my concern

Fagstar seem to have a drift range and a drift ECO which look like LiFi4PO

They are LifeP04, but the BMS is only 250a

I am looking at 12 V 300Ah x 2 to give 600 Ah so I can drive my Bow thruster

The BMS seem to be able to supply close to that current.

The BMS has a 250a limit, "close" isn't good enough, you need enough, at least.

The drift seems to cost 722 GBP for 300 Ah
The Drift ECO seem to cost 499.99 GBP for 305 Ah
The Drift PRO seem to cost 950 GBP for 300 Ah

Which on do you have and why did you select the one you did

must look at the spec sheets in detail then consider shipping costs

See above.

I also see that fogstar are bring out a 12Vdc DIY setup where the 315 Ah will cost 450 GBP Again LiFe4 PO

Aby one any comment

Those are B grade Envision cells.

You need 300a BMS's. One for each battery, along with individual fuses and isolator switches. If, however, the current inrush draws enough through either BMS to cause it to shut that battery down, the other will instantly shut down too, leaving you with no domestic power, at least for a short time.

You will need to be sure that the cabling from the batteries is perfectly matched, along with the switches and fuses, then connect them to a common busbar.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Paul I understand that but going back to your previous comment I plan to have 3 sets in parallel so I will have about 600 Ah and with the BMS's should give me close or more than the maximum 600 Amp my Bow thruster need.

Having found a local supplier of EVE cells and JK BMS's I can mix and match to get the capacity I need

3 sets of these

4x EVE 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 cells (12,8V Pack)

should give me 840 Ah and with 3 off 200Amp BMS one for each bank should give me more than enough capacity unless there is something I am not aware of

If you guys don't think 200Amp x 3 BMS is not enough, where can I get some 300Amp BMS's

Something like this

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006269309105.html

OR

JK BMS 4S 300A (500A PEAK) SMART BMS WITH 2A ACTIVE BALANCER » LiFePo4 Australia

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul I understand that but going back to your previous comment I plan to have 3 sets in parallel so I will have about 600 Ah and with the BMS's should give me close or more than the maximum 600 Amp my Bow thruster need.

Having found a local supplier of EVE cells and JK BMS's I can mix and match to get the capacity I need

3 sets of these

4x EVE 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 cells (12,8V Pack)

should give me 840 Ah and with 3 off 200Amp BMS one for each bank should give me more than enough capacity unless there is something I am not aware of

If you guys don't think 200Amp x 3 BMS is not enough, where can I get some 300Amp BMS's

Something like this

Jk bms 300a JK-B2A8S30P smart 2a aktive Balance 18650 lifepo4 Batterie 4s 12v 5s 6s 7s 8s 24v 48v li-ion lto rs485 camping ebike - AliExpress 44

OR

JK BMS 4S 300A (500A PEAK) SMART BMS WITH 2A ACTIVE BALANCER » LiFePo4 Australia

For the tiny difference in price i'd go with the 300a BMS. JIKONG BMS JK-B2A8S30P 4S 5S 6S 7S 8S 12V 24V Active Balance BMS Smart BMS 100A 200A 300A Lifepo4 Li-Ion Lto Batterie - AliExpress 44

I'm not 100% certain that those cells are genuine EVE cells, the terminals are not the same as the ones i have or the ones Fogstar sell. Others may know better than i do in that regard.......

 

[geem]

For the tiny difference in price i'd go with the 300a BMS. JIKONG BMS JK-B2A8S30P 4S 5S 6S 7S 8S 12V 24V Active Balance BMS Smart BMS 100A 200A 300A Lifepo4 Li-Ion Lto Batterie - AliExpress 44

I'm not 100% certain that those cells are genuine EVE cells, the terminals are not the same as the ones i have or the ones Fogstar sell. Others may know better than i do in that regard.......

It's possible that they are genuine Eve cells. I believe the cells you have have the optional twin fixings. They have come in for some criticism as not all terminals are accurately welded in place. It can be troublesome attaching busbars when this happens

 

[fredrussell]

I also see that fogstar are bring out a 12Vdc DIY setup where the 315 Ah will cost 450 GBP Again LiFe4 PO

Aby one any comment

When I priced up making a 12v 300-ish A/H battery using their A grade Eve cells and their BMS it came to about £450 so that seems a fair price. I’d want to know whether Fogstar are using the Eve cells for £450, or their B grade cells.