Lights?

rhinorhino

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Every time there is a question about the col regs on these forums (such as the one on fishing in PBO), I am amazed by the number of people who post with the wrong answer. It seems most worrying to me that so many people out there have no or a very poor grasp of the regulations.
Either it matters if you know your regs or it doesn't. If it does there is a case for more training and/or forced training or a detailed knowledge of the regs is really not needed to sail safely in which case a lot of effort is being wasted, on RYA courses etc.
I know there are alot of people who operate on the keep out of the way of anything bigger than me principle.
Before I am flamed out can I make two pionts; one, I am not claiming I am always right. Two, there are pionts in the regulations which are unclear or a matter for debate but fishing shapes is not one of them.
Comments?




<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by rhinorhino on 11/12/2002 13:49 (server time).</FONT></P>
 

Magic_Sailor

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I think your right - it is worrying but I'm not sure more/comulsory training would practically help.

A year ago I reckon I knew a fair proportion (no one's perfect!) for my Yachtmasters. In between times, I reckon sail 2 weekends out of 3 with holidays on top. However, I now don't feel so confident that I'd have instant answers. Note I'm not talking about pilotage marks etc.

My answer is to every now and then go back to my book and little card thingy's and have a quick scan. I know this is training of a sort but I think you meant some sort of RYA course or something.

Magic
 

Mirelle

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I agree with that. I do about the same amount of sailing, I do try to read through the books and a set of flash cards and I have to think quite carefully about some lights and shapes. You can go years without seeing some of them, and some of the things that you do see look nothing like the pictures in the books.
 

peterb

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Fishing shapes may be quite clear, but "Vessels engaged in fishing" are not. Rule 3(d) defines such vessels, and specifically excludes vessels fishing with apparatus which does not restrict manoeuvrability. Suppose that you are anchored and fishing. Is your manoeuvrability affected? Remember that Rule 26(a) says that vessels engaged in fishing, whether anchored or not, should only show the lights and shapes of Rule 26. So if you are fishing with rod and line of the back of an anchored dinghy, do you fall within the exclusion of 3(d), or the inclusion of 26(a)?

And that's only one case of ambiguity in the regs. There are quite a lot more.
 

Cornishman

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The problem with the 'keep out of the way of anything bigger than me' brigade is that they can create confusion if they are the stand on vessel. See Rule 17 (a) (i)

As for training, the same problems occur on the roads. You know enough of the Highway Code to pass the test, but how many people know the correct way to negotiate a roundabout?
 

BrendanS

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You'd have thought that road use was quite clear, yet poll straw in my local recently showed 95% of inhabitants of the tavern thought that:

Speed limit on duel carriageway = 60 mph
Speed limit on major road = 50 mph

No amount of arguement convinced them otherwise. Had to buy a copy of highway code before they admitted defeat.

If something this simple is not understood by regular drivers, what is the chance of non professional sea going peeps understanding col regs?
 

Gunfleet

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I agree with you. However, I have been in Harwich Harbour when a ferry has come up behind me and given me a sharp toot on the whistle. He wants me to get out of his way. I know that's what he wants me to do and what's more am happy to comply. He is definitely an overtaking vessel (ie I have been sailing up here for some time, he has been approaching me from behind for some time). I get out of his way. This is not covered in the regulations. Am I somehow confusing matters by not standing on? I don't think so. There's always this problem with the regulations. They nearly work, but who could devise a regulation that covers all circumstances? I couldn't and the COLREGS people have nearly but not quite managed it.
 

LadyInBed

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Collision regs are very much like the Highway Code.
There are those rules that you must know, those that you have a working knowledge of but can't quote, and the rest.

When popping across the Channel and there are four or five big buggers steaming down trying to be home for breakfast, I might well be the stand on vessel, but I will still give respect to size!
 

TheBoatman

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Re: God it\'s Fess up time again

I have held my DTI boatmans Licence and Yachtmaster offshore (with commercial endorsement) for more than 20 years now and I HAVE TO ADMIT that most of what I crammed in to my head has fallen out. ColRegs/Lights/Shapes/Morse/ Local byelaws (Ramsgate) Bearings to get home/ bearings on leading lights to name but a few.
I now admit to having to hand copies of Macmillans, RNLI Seacheck aide de memoires all of which I consult because they are there!
Sure I know the basics, the bits I use a lot, but the stuff that I dont use very often I HAVE FORGOTTEN LONG AGO, and need reminding. So if I see something that I don't instantly reconize I check the relevant info book, and I'm not ashamed to admit it, theres always time to check, just to be sure, I see no problem with this.
For example, a guy that regularly races will have a very quick reaction to port/starboard/windward situations whereas a cruising yottie doesn't always have the same reaction time. A ferry captain knows more about stand on/crossing situations, it's horses-for-courses.
As long as you know your limitations and can readily find the info then I think that we can all get along and I see nothing wrong in admiting that if you don't know whats happening around you but you do know where to find the info quickly then theres no real problem?
 

Cornishman

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I am not familiar with Harwich Harbour, but I suggest that Rule 9 probably applies within its limits. It certainly does in Plymouth Sound and in Falmouth, which I venture are bigger and wider. You might also have local harbour byelaws to consider.
 

Gunfleet

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You're probably right, though the 'channel' at that point would be half a mile wide. My point really was that a ferry skipper is hardly going to be surprised if you try not to impede him. Try another example. Crossing a seperation scheme the vessels you are crossing are not constrained by draft and you may well have right of way, but only a mad bloke will rely on some container ship steaming up the Dover Straights avoiding his little yacht. For a start it presumes they've seen you! Better to heave to while you've still got plenty of searoom, make sure it's obvious to them you've heaved to, and pass behind them, don't you think?
 

vyv_cox

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And signals?

The bits of paper currently falling out of some yachting magazines and newsletters include one on the SOLAS regs and another on various emergency signals to be used. I don't know who thought these up but I find them impossible to remember and doubt very much whether they are practical. Do we expect it to be recognised that we are waving a flare or smoke vertically instead of horizontally? Or even the same thing with our arms only? I don't think so.
 

rhinorhino

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Surely the answer is no. If you are at anchor you have no ability to manouver hence it can not be hampered by your fishing gear. The correct shapes/lights are those for a vessel at anchor.
 

Cornishman

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Re: And signals?

Surely the only distress signals recognised internationally are those to be found at Annex 4 of IRPCS? There are no 'emergency' signals other than flags 'O' and 'V'
See RYA Desk Diary 2003 page 14
 

vyv_cox

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Re: And signals?

I didn't say "distress". The leaflet refers to quite a large number of arm, flare and smoke gestures to be made to helicopters, lifeboats, etc. Don't have the leaflet here and I certainly neither understood nor remembered them all after 10 minutes study.
 

Cornishman

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Re: And signals?

I know. But the only types of flares, smoke or otherwise, available to yotties are distress or the white 'steamer scarer'. That is my point. I haven't seen the leaflet to which you refer, but I am conversant with SOLAS 1 and SOLAS 2 Life Saving Signals Tables. These refer only to distress signals etc.
The arm signals to helicopters are universal - I had a poster with the same signals issued to my National Trust site in case I required the air ambulance to evacuate an injured visitor.
 
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