Liferaft Stowage

[qsiv]

<<I fancy the same rule should apply to liferafts on coachroofs - is the coachroof strengthened to take the load? >>

Wow - I'd worry about your coachroof! As an example a (4 man) liferaft is unlikely to weigh more than 35kg. If the coach roof cant stand a teenager standing on it I wouldnt go far enough out to sea to warrant carrying a liferaft!


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[qsiv]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

Yes - and it is easier to secure in a marina. I lock the engine keys inside the locker with the liferaft - that way I KNOW the safety locker will be unlocked before we head out to sea.

The ORC (and RORC) requirement is that lifrafts must be capable of being got to the rail in 15 seconds. Ours is a six man valise, and in harbour I can open the locker and lift it out in about 8 seconds. It would be more difficult in a gale at sea, but youd probably have two guys with drenaline pumping do it in less time!

FWIW our raft weighs in at 38 to 40 Kg and is fairly easy to lift. I wouldnt trust it on deck or at the stern - but then I am prone to going to see in fresh breezes when required, and the force of waves across the deck is not to be underestimated.

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[vyv_cox]

You\'re a lot stronger than me, then

There is no way that I, or even more Jill, could lift 40 kg out of a locker in 8 seconds. I can't remember the weight of our tender but it's a good bit less than this and it takes considerable effort to get it out. My choice when I carried a liferaft was a canister on the coachroof, in a purpose-built wooden cradle with stainless steel straps and two lockable over-centre latches. This way we at least had gravity to help us get the thing down to the water but lifting it over the rail was not easy for me and nearly impossible for Jill. There is nothing to get hold of with some canisters and they are awkward to handle.

Now we don't carry one, trusting to the floating ability of the Sadler. OK, that doesn't allow for fire but I still carry BCF extinguishers and intend to do so for many years to come. So long as the weight doesn't reduce they will always be functional.

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[Robin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

We generally sail as husband and wife and don't have 2 guys to help lift our raft out of a locker, out of the cockpit and over the guardrails. We actually used a block & tackle from our MOB Lifesling setup to lift the raft into it's cradle. We have also been caught in gales at sea (and didn't have the foresight to take those 2 guys with us to help).
Also you would need to make sure nothing else was put into the locker to hinder removal, something I might not have the willpower to avoid! Ours too is locked in place in the marina, all 4 cockpit lockers have the same key and the rule is 1 lock off all locks off. I agree about the force of the sea and any mounting has to be very solid, but commercial vessels and fishing boats have theirs on deck or on the wheelhouse so it is not impossible.

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[Robin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

All this doom and gloom is making me think of never leaving the marina!

Our stern rail is very substantial indeed, more like a climbing frame, as it incorporates two 2" plus dia poles one for radar one for an Aerogen 6 as well as a platform for the solar panel. That said I could see it could be damaged in a rollover but with 6 large mounting feet and substantial backing pads it may come up bent but still attached somewhere, if the raft broke free it could then inflate I agree and be a nuisance. Under the same scenario though you would need very strong cockpit locker catches.

We do also have a 10' Avon in a cockpit locker and on our main trips a 12' Tinker Traveller on deck (in a valise), complete with sailing gear. One way or another we might make it home!

Mind you, except perhaps in the event of fire, I have no intention of taking to a tiny bit of pumped up plastic or rubber unless our pride and joy is on her way to the bottom and we step up into it from the pair of mast steps we have at the top of the mast. I can recall very well the 1979 Fastnet when boats were found still afloat with washboards out days after having been abandoned and crews lives lost either getting into liferafts or when liferafts broke up.





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[qsiv]

Re: You\'re a lot stronger than me, then

I dot knwo about that<g>

To be fair the locker is shallow, and holds only the raft - it;s in a valise and so has easy handles to grab. I know I struggle to get it off the boat single handed - but I have checked it is liftable. Coincidentally it's exactly the same weight as our rolled up dinghy (but a lot smaller and more manageable).

As for the weight it's actually a bit lighter than our medium weight spinnaker (full size, but heavier cloth) which lives in a deep sail locker forrad - now that really is a struggle to move around - if it gets wet I have to rely on purchases and winches and the spi pole to move as it is beyond me. I keep feeding the boy's but they're only 9 & 10 and bit small!

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[Robin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

I'll be in real trouble then since when I'm standing at the wheel I can reach out and touch all parts of the raft!
On reflection I think I'll lock the wheel, go below, put the washboards in (with inner fastenings), shut the hatch and climb into a bunk with a very large bottle of scotch. With the CD on full blast with Brenda Lee (shows my age) or Ride of The Valkyries I can wait for it all to end - as long as we don't get run down, though we could keep a radar watch of sorts until the scanner is swept from it's mounting.

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[Robin]

Mirelle is right.

It's not the weight that matters, it's the upward force exerted on the raft by a breaking wave that could pull the mounting cradle bolts through the coachroof unless the underside is substantially reinforced.

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[Twister_Ken]

Apart from the bottle of scotch...

>On reflection I think I'll lock the wheel, go below, put the washboards in (with inner fastenings), shut the hatch and climb into a bunk with a very large bottle of scotch. With the CD on full blast with Brenda Lee (shows my age) or Ride of The Valkyries I can wait for it all to end<

... it's not a bad plan!

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[qsiv]

Appologies - I misread the context.

However, I dont think youd get the same forces on a packed liferaft as you would on a dinghy (unless it is packed down to liferaft size). I can see the dinghy issue if it is a rigid dinghy - I fancy a partially inflated rubabdub would buckle uner the strain.

In a previous existence I ran an old narrow Nelson 42, and had water so solid coming over the wheelhouse that it buckled the alloy mast, and we also sheared two engine mountings. The liferafts mounted on the coachroof however were fine - didnt budge, or pull free. Whilst it wasnt as rough as a sailing boat passage, it was a fairly genuine F7 off L'Aberwrach and the seas were immense (just like the lighthouse photos). We had water flying like only a Nelson can create. We left 24 hours later and the see was almost calm, just a residual swell.

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[Robin]

I reckon F7 in a Nelson could be a lot rougher than in a sailboat. Agree about the seas off L'Aberwrac'h, we went up Chenal Du Four with NE7 and a lot of tide, Le Four Light was quite a sight and we now have a picture postcard of it pasted in the log. The swell off there after gales is something else too. We had a very bad ride (downwind) from L'Aberwrac'h to St Peter Port after 5/6 days of gales and a good (NW going SW 4-5) forecast. An hour out we (SWMBO & me) had 35kts gusting to 45kts over the deck whilst doing 8kts over the ground downwind and down swell. This was in our previous boat a Westerly 33 ketch, we had a full main (not from choice, I thought we'd be rolled trying to turn and get it down, it was fully battened), no mizzen and a tiny bit of roller genoa sheeted hard in, at times we surfed at 10.5kts, the boat was wonderful as was SWMBO who provided hot drinks and food at intervals over the 13 hours it lasted.

The liferaft was mounted on the pushpit as it is on our latest boat and I don't think it even got wet, the seas though were unbelievable. Another W33 (also with full main) left with us and had a Tinker Traveller 12' in davits on the stern, once again no problem and no water got in the Tinker.

Jersey Radio were the only ones who got the forecast correct, unfortunately they were not in range when we left L'Aberwac'h, and we believed the UK Shipping Forecast and the French one from Ushant Traffic Control.

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[bedouin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

I think the danger comes from taking a breaking wave over the stern - and you've got a lot mounted on the rail to add to the resistance.

I've got no experience of the sort of weather conditions that could cause such damage - but there are numerous reports where a boat has lost the stern rails, stanchions and so on, but still stayed afloat.

What you are saying is that you reckon your stern rail is stronger than the rest of the boat - that is anything strong enough to damage the stern rail will sink the boat as well.

You may be right - but I was struck by the case of the yacht "Satori" (badly related in The Perfect Storm) where the liferaft deployed while the boat was still afloat - and the skipper had to abandon it long before it was needed.

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[charles_reed]

Effectively that\'s what you do

when you lie ahull.

Most boats adopt about a 40/45 degree attitude to wind direction and wave-train and with a reasonably ballasted boat you'll avoid B3s except in shallow water and you can get your head down and some rest.

Having once used a liferaft in earnest - I'd confirm it is the least desirable option available, you're all seasick in about 20 mins, the damn thing keeps on capsizing and it's a sod to get back into out of the water.

In the final analysis the boat will always take more punishment than the crew - the whole strategy of heavy weather survival is about how to conserve strength and preserve crew well-being.

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[charles_reed]

Effectively that\'s what you do

when you lie ahull.

Most boats adopt about a 40/45 degree attitude to wind direction and wave-train and with a reasonably ballasted boat you'll avoid B3s except in shallow water and you can get your head down and some rest.

Having once used a liferaft in earnest - I'd confirm it is the least desirable option available, you're all seasick in about 20 mins, the damn thing keeps on capsizing and it's a sod to get back into out of the water.

In the final analysis the boat will always take more punishment than the crew - the whole strategy of heavy weather survival is about how to conserve strength and preserve crew well-being.

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[charles_reed]

I suspect he was referring to the shock loading when you get hit by solid green water.

It's a pull, not an impact, and can be very considerable.

One way to reduce this ia to allow a space between canister and cabin top, mine is raised 80mm.


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[Mirelle]

Yes, I was. Particularly when the boat is thrown onto her beam ends. The damage always seems to be on the lee side. Certainly a liferaft is much smaller than a rigid dinghy, but it is something to be considered, if the designer did not do so. A deck erection is usually calculated on the basis of what weight will it have to support, rather than what lateral impact load might it sustain.

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[Robin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

What is mounted on the stern is fairly high up, the goal posts carrying the solar panel are over my head when standing at the wheel, she is a Doug Peterson designed 41' Sun Legende. The whole goalpost/stern rail arrangement was specially designed by Yacht designer Mike Pocock of 'Blackjack' RTW fame for the previous owners since when she has covered some 12,000 miles including the AZAB 2 handed race and several full gales.

I don't doubt that keeping a raft would be safer down below, but then it would be safer still if left ashore, the point is that if I need it it should be immediately available and can be launched singlehanded by either me or my wife. We have taken every possible precaution to avoid the raft coming adrift and self inflating which would entail cutting it free, but we could do that from the wheel. If it self inflated whilst stowed on deck it would be much harder to sort out. OK in either scenario the raft is no longer available for use, but then if one of us went overboard and the raft was below, the other would have NO chance of launching it.

I can see all sides of this discussion but for our circumstances, heavy raft and husband & wife crew I think we have the optimum solution. By the by in some 60,000 miles covered I have never been pooped, though I have had solid breaking waves over the coachroof and into the cockpit via the side door.

Actually I hope never to have to use the thing, the very thought of deserting a very solid piece of naval architecture for a round lilo paddling pool does not appeal - where would we stow the gin bottle?




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[Robin]

Re: Effectively that\'s what you do

Hear hear.

We lie ahull quite nicely and did so to a small extent in anger last year returning from Cherbourg to Poole with SW7 that went to F8 for a few hours, we did it just to pull the reefs in (all 3) when the tide turned against the wind. Very quiet and peaceful by comparison, with all our reefing (slab/full battened main) done from the cockpit I didn't even get wet.

I really don't want to use a raft in anger, to do so would be a very last resort and pre-supposes abandoning the boat.

What made you take to a raft?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kimhollamby on 03/03/2003 15:38 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[bedouin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

Yes - all boats are different and what suits one does not suit another, and as neither of us has experienced conditions strong enough to sink the yachts it is difficult to guess how they will react in F10+. After all a "Full Gale" is only F8, which for Bedouin at least is superb sailing conditions. I've only once been out in F10, and that was only in the Solent, so it doesn't really count!

My opinion is that in extreme weather conditions you are unlikely to have to abandon ship in seconds, so the liferaft in the locker is perfectly safe. OTOH in fog I sometimes choose to bring the liferaft up on deck.

Another idea I've had, but not implemented, is to add secure fixing points in the cockpit itself. Then in heavy weather the liferaft could be secured there which would have the double benefit of making it easy to deploy and also reducing the cockpit volume, hence reducing the amount of water taken in if pooped.

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[Robin]

Re: \'Ware transom mountings

I think the times you are likely to need a liferaft quickly are for a serious fire or a collision, either with a submerged object like a container or maybe a whale, or a run down perhaps in fog. Mostly boats founder by hitting something or being hit by something, seldom by force of weather out at sea, witness abandoned boats still afloat days or weeks even later, often with the mainhatch and washboards out.

We were very close (well about 8mls) to an incident off Ushant some years back when a 60' wooden powerboat caught fire. The crew put out a Pan Pan for ships with firepumps, within minutes changed it to a Mayday and promptly went off air. They had taken to the liferaft, didn't have a handheld VHF but were picked up safely. The incident made me think hard and we bought a handheld VHF very soon after and resolved to have an ever ready raft!

We also knew people with a powerboat that caught fire in a flat calm in the Solent, I believe the water pump failed on one engine and the rubber exhaust hose caught fire, the cabin filled with smoke. They too needed a raft quickly.

Personally, since I would avoid F10 and the Perfect Storm like the plague I think more in terms of the run down or fire scenario!

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