"Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Disappointed that all this kind of nonsense is coming out again after the last round of such posts on the topic 3 months ago, but recognise that the current posters may not have seen the well over 300 posts of all shades of opinion.

"Sitting in the water with my crew/family dying around me" just rarely happens except in the most extreme conditions that most of us will never experience - and even then the record of liferafts is not good. Please read all the MAIB reports and base your opinions and decisions on evidence not wild speculation.

With regard to the Ouzo report. Read it carefully. There is no evidence that a hydrostatic liferaft would have saved them - only a "belief" based on the fact that the crew was alive when they entered the water and if they had been able to get in a raft they would have survived. This assumes that the release worked, the raft inflated and they were were sufficiently close to board (in itself not easy). Lots of "ifs" as other MAIB reports will show.

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
Disappointed that all this kind of nonsense is coming out again after the last round of such posts on the topic 3 months ago, but recognise that the current posters may not have seen the well over 300 posts of all shades of opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is the nature of forums - topics quickly get forgotten - or someone new comes along with a problem that doesn't quite fit with the other scenarios so they ask a question ...

I see no harm in getting ppl to question the suitability of their own safety equipment.

 

[DJE]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Sadlers and Etaps keeping smugly quiet on this one. Well we were until I spoiled it!
Personally I rely on the boat's inbuilt foam bouyancy to at least give me time to inflate the dinghy. I have extinguishers and buckets handy all around the boat in case of fire; and I don't carry a liferaft.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You are right, of course. Just that the original post this time was virtually identical to the one that started the last threads and many of the unsupported statements in subsequent posts are the same! Still at least its consistent and we haven't got into all the spurious comparisons with air bags and seatbelts (yet!).

Also agree with questioning ones own risk management, but rationally on the basis of evidence, not emotion.

 

[Sailfree]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Glad to see some sensible comments rather than the typical H & S bullsh*t of don't fail to take one safety measure including the absolute safety measure - don't go sailing!!

Sailing back from Cherbourg yesterday one of my crew mentioned that when his wifes firm moved to Canary Wharf lots of staff asked to be issued with a parachute! My crew thought it was a ridiculous request but the thought crossed my mind that if everyone in high rise buildings were issued with parachutes that worked efficiently at low level compared to life rafts on boats what step would save the most lives - just thinking back to 911 and other incidents of fires in high rise buildings I suspect that over the last 25years parachutes could have saved more lives than liferafts!!


Kinda puts the actual risk in perspective!!

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Do you:

Wear a crash helmet, knee and elbow pads whilst walking down the road? You could be hit by anything or trip over a stone so you should really.

Put your lifejacket on and inflate it before going afloat? What if the gas bottle fails?

Do you have a LR in your tender? What if that sinks on an ebb tide ....

Put your lifejacket on and have your survival suit ready when walking along the beach? What if a rouge wave comes in?

Have a full first aid kit complete with leg splints and defib unit about your person the whole time? What if you fall off a curb and have a heart attack?

Is there a Fire extinguisher and blanket ready for deployment when you light a BBQ or operate any electrical equipment? It could catch fire ....

Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk. I'm one of those reckless individuals that doesn't wear their LJ all the time - I didn't even put it on last weekend - we don't have a liferaft either - with the sort of sailing we do this chances of needing one are so slight that I'd rather spend the money on items that may actually see some use - ensuring that we don't need the LR to start with ....

A lot of sailing is about risk management - do you have a safety line on when going up the mast - are you expecting the main line to fail? If not, could the spare line not fail too? Should you put a 3rd line on?

Should you be going out in weather where you deem the LR to be of importance - are you expecting your boat to fail - if so, shouldn't you look at resolving those issues first ... what would cause a boat to sink?

1) Mast coming down and puncturing the hull - check the rigging - replace it, have a redundant spare, have bolt croppers to get rid of it as quickly as possible
2) Keel falling off - buy a boat with an encapsulated keel
3) Seacock / Skin fitting / Pipe failure - get the highest possible quality fittings, inspect often, replace before they need it, have bungs/padding available, have suitable pumps and buckets at hand
4) Collision - difficult to mitigate against - could be you are hit by another craft or you hit a submerged object in the water - for the first, make sure you have RADAR and know how to operate - take avoiding action as early as possible, for the second - how about considering making the bow section a sacraficial bow - fill in the forepeak stowage with suitable buoyancy - make the door to the forepeak watertight. Have a keel and rudder design that won't fall off when hit
5) Rolling/pooping - don't go out in weather (or forecasted weather) conditions that would make this a possibility ...
6) Fire - Have additional automatic fire extinguishers onboard in the likely places, make sure all your electrical items are suitably protected, remove gas appliances/bottles, do not allow smoking on board.

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And all this is relevant is it?

looks exactly like preaching to me.


"Me.... I am an adult, I can make my own decisions"

Seems to me, that you are making decisions for other people, who have no choice. Next time I get on a ferry in the Solent, I'll suggest to Whitelink, that they could save lots of overhead costs by leaving their liferafts ashore. Probably allow more passenger room as well.

"I wouldn't think we'd be in the water for more than 30 minutes, and we quite often go for a swim anyway ... so no real issue there ... "

So, if you can guarantee that the survival time for 'everyone' on your boat if they are in the Solent at present must be at least 30 minutes, then not much point in any rescue services hurrying is there.

"My crew are all adults "

You still have a duty of care, regardless of their age.

"My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required."

So sadly, the Ouzo went down, with 3 crew dead, even though they would obviously have had similar priorities to the one your giving. Just proves, that thinking you have a priority doesn't eliminate risk. I assume you have not got any lifejackets either, since with this ethos, you will obviously never need them.


"but don't consider me (and thousands of others) an idiot just because I don't concur with your way of thinking."

1) don't consider that you speak for or represent thousands of others!
2) I didn't specifically mention you were an idiot, however if its a term you wish to adopt, feel free to use it.

In the end, if you are prepared (as you obviously are) to compromise on safety, I sincerely hope you continue to have such luck.

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
And all this is relevant is it?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes - it's your attitude to risks
[ QUOTE ]
looks exactly like preaching to me.

[/ QUOTE ] Just making suggestions as to how to mitigate those risks
[ QUOTE ]
"Me.... I am an adult, I can make my own decisions"

Seems to me, that you are making decisions for other people, who have no choice. Next time I get on a ferry in the Solent, I'll suggest to Whitelink, that they could save lots of overhead costs by leaving their liferafts ashore. Probably allow more passenger room as well.

[/ QUOTE ] The other adults DO have a choice ... they don't have to come aboard if they don't want to, they can (as I did say and you ignored) suggest the purchase of a LR if they wish.

[ QUOTE ]
"I wouldn't think we'd be in the water for more than 30 minutes, and we quite often go for a swim anyway ... so no real issue there ... "

So, if you can guarantee that the survival time for 'everyone' on your boat if they are in the Solent at present must be at least 30 minutes, then not much point in any rescue services hurrying is there.

[/ QUOTE ] Can you guarantee that your LR will inflate? Can you guarantee that everyone will be able to get in it safely ... you are assuming that a LR = 100% safety guaranteed - which is bolx

[ QUOTE ]
"My crew are all adults "

You still have a duty of care, regardless of their age.

[/ QUOTE ]Whilst I don't disagree with the statement I fail to see how this translates to "Must have a LR"

[ QUOTE ]
"My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required."

So sadly, the Ouzo went down, with 3 crew dead, even though they would obviously have had similar priorities to the one your giving. Just proves, that thinking you have a priority doesn't eliminate risk. I assume you have not got any lifejackets either, since with this ethos, you will obviously never need them.

[/ QUOTE ]
We do have LJ's (you really didn't bother reading my post did you - some instructor you must be!!)

[ QUOTE ]

"but don't consider me (and thousands of others) an idiot just because I don't concur with your way of thinking."

1) don't consider that you speak for or represent thousands of others!

[/ QUOTE ] I don't speak on behalf of thousands of others - they have their own voice, however, I do KNOW there are thousands of others who do not consider LR a necessity for them

[ QUOTE ]

2) I didn't specifically mention you were an idiot, however if its a term you wish to adopt, feel free to use it.

In the end, if you are prepared (as you obviously are) to compromise on safety, I sincerely hope you continue to have such luck.

[/ QUOTE ] I suggest you don't ever go out of your house, and even then you will be compromising on safety ... nothing is 100% safe, nothing ever will be ... and I'd hate to live in the sanitised world that you appear to dream of.

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Now I don't know whether you realise it, but your posts on this subject are bordering on being confrontational, maybe you don't intend them to be, but I have to tell you, that you are not going to convince anyone, by posting in such a manner. Your way of doing things may well suit you, but I think that you have to accept, that your way, is not necessarily the right way for other people, nor would your way be appropriate for the type of sailing that some others participate in. Why don't you stop banging the table and engage with people in a calm and reasonable manner, instead of trying to just score points off people.

As I am sure you know, this subject was done to ashes, a while back, and I doubt very much that anything that was said by anyone, has changed the way people feel about things, only reasonable and thoughtful discussion will / might achieve that.

 

[cliffordpope]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You can always take any theoretically dangerous situation and imagine yourself facing your or your family's imminent death. At that theoretical moment obviously you would be prepared to pay any sum of money within your resources in order to be rescued.
You didn't insist on your child wearing a crash helmet when walking round Tescos. Now a stack of baked bean tins has fallen on her and killed her. Why oh why did you penny pinch and not spend £5 on a basic helmet? Surely a child's life is worth £5 or £50 or £500 or a million ?

That cannot possibly be a basis for rationally determining risk and how much it is reasonable to accept and at what price?

Nor for criticising the different decision of someone else, especially if they cannot afford the cost of the protection?

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I agree - with perhaps one minor alteration - not being able to afford the safety gear doesn't automatically mean it is ok to carry on without it .... sometimes a particular item of safety gear should be considered indispensable.

I would consider a VHF to be indispensable - at the very last resort a mobile phone.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Sorry, alant but you seem to be blinded about liferafts being a viable and necessary piece of safety equipment for yachtsmen. Unfortunately the evidence is against you. The chances of your yacht foundering are close to zero (17 cases in the last 12 years in UK and Irish waters or involving UK registered yachts elswhere and almost all in situations that most are unlikely to ever encounter). In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful.

All of this is in the public domain in the MAIB and MCIB reports.

You owe it to the people you are training and giving advice to (and youself) to read all these reports so that your opinion and advice is based on fact and not speculation on what "might" happen.

We can all imagine scary scenarios and there are examples of extreme situations that have arisen, but they are far removed from the lived reality of our own lives and sailing practices. The only possible exception is collision, and even then there are only 5 reported cases at sea of which only 2 resulted in loss of life in that period plus two others in a commercial harbour, one of which resulted in loss of life (and where a liferaft would not have changed the outcome).

Amazing is it not that there are so few. Says a lot for standards of seamanship and quality of equipment available to us to allow us to stay clear of big ships and navigate safely in our crowded waters.

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

"Can you guarantee that your LR will inflate? Can you guarantee that everyone will be able to get in it safely ... you are assuming that a LR = 100% safety guaranteed - which is bolx"

"In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful."

"advice is based on fact and not speculation on what "might" happen."
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To all these comments, there is one definite conclusion.

If you DO NOT have a LR, then you can be 100% certain, that it cannot work!

Yes there are failures.

Yes there are few situations when they have been used in anger by yotties.

So, does this still allow you to say with certainty that they are a waste of space?

This is definitely bolx (as you say).

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful.
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This suggests to me an 85% success rate.

Bloody marvelous I would think, if I was one of the guys about to get into one.

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
So, does this still allow you to say with certainty that they are a waste of space?

This is definitely bolx (as you say).

[/ QUOTE ]
Please identify EXACTLY where I said they are a waste of space?

I said: "Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk." and "For many, the risk is so low that it really isn't worth purchasing a LR - you'd do better spending the £500 on a family holiday somewhere hotter! "
The evidence given by others show that statistically you are highly unlikely to need a LR in UK coastal waters, even then 70% of the deployments were a failure (not that I would give much credence to such a low sample size.)

Please stop talking absolute crap - as a registered/qualified RYA instructor with 30+ years experience you really should know better.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Never said they were a waste of space. I have one on one of my own boats. All I am saying is that this emotive talk about the dangers is out of line with the facts.

Much legislation/regulation and opinion is based on "mights" rather than responding to the evidence of "what is". Once it becomes normal practice it becomes accepted - even though it may be wrong. Speed and road accidents is another area of modern life where dogma overrides reality. But on the other hand how many people do you see driving around without wearing their seatbelts when there is overwhelming evidence that they save lives every day. And the probability of having an accident on the road is infinitely higher than at sea, mainly because you are also at risk from the actions of others - very rare at sea!

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Sorry - you are really talking out of your rear end here ...

7 deployments (gawd knows how many ppl carry them and how many trips where may be needed - but I'd guess it is in the millions)
of those 7, 2 were succesful - that is 28.5% chance of success. 4 were only partially successful - ie a failure - 56% only partially succeesful then ... therefore 14.25% failure ...

as I said - 7 deployments doesn't make for good statistics - the sample size is far too small to be of any use. The figures given do not give any other variables - make/size/age/last service so you cannot use any of these figures.

 

[tonyc07]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I cruise the South Coast and France, so pretty much coastal.
This is done with SWIMBO and a young family - so most Definatly have our own liferaft.

I bet those three unfortunate souls from the Ouzo wished that they had had a liferaft. They may not have had time to put out a distress call, however a LR would probably have prevented them from expiring from hypothermia.

With family on board the consequences of not having a LR do not bear thinking about.

 

[stevebrassett]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I cruise on the East Coast, and am rarely more than half a mile offshore. There are no rocks where I sail, and the mud won't puncture my hull (I know - I've hit it often enough). I don't have a liferaft, and have no intention in getting one for this boat. I mostly single-hand, and anyone coming sailing with me is made aware in advance that I don't have a liferaft. I don't have plumbed-in gas. I have lifejackets that I periodically inspect and test. I always have in-date flares, and I have fixed VHF, H/H VHF and an emergency aerial. No-one will convince me that I need a liferaft.

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

In your situation I'd probably shell out for a LR ... or hire one for the X Channel hops ...

The MAIB report suggests that a LR MAY have been of help to the Ouzo crew - but then so would a sodding great big engine and hydrofoils - IF ... and only IF they were aware the assumed collision would occur. I think the only 100% hard fast thing we can learn from the Ouzo is that you cannot rely on others to avoid a collision.

[ QUOTE ]
With family on board the consequences of not having a LR do not bear thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've had family on board with no LR .... the consequences were .... fun time had by all and they want to go sailing again ...

Sorry - with young family on board you do not take the same sort of risks - and if you don't have a LR then you take that into account when planning your passages.

LR is there (for those that have them) as a last resort - not a "Get out of danger free" card ...

I'll make a suggestion - sail as though you don't have any safety gear onboard ... you'll be much safer!

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Have you met Gludy?

Paul - Alan, Alan - Paul, right I'll leave you two to get acquainted. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif