"Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[BlueChip]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Liferaft now costs approx £500+, what price the lives of your family and friends?
Its like life insurance, you pay your premiums and hope your family never have to claim
A fire is as likely to happen inshore as on a cross channel crossing.
Life expectancy in the sea this time of the year- jut a few minutes?

 

[mikehibb]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I Life raft is just like an insurance policy, something that costs extra and you hope you do not need it, but if you get into a situation where you need one you will regret not having one.

I am a med sailor (Coastal) an luckily my boat came with one, I would still have invested in one anyway.

UK sailing has much colder waters, it is not so much how far you sail from the shore, but how far you can swim in cold water espicially if injured or already tired after trying to save the boat.

Down to personal choice, my choice is to have one.

 

[Steve Clayton]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Do your own risk assessment.

1. What's the worst possible impact if you don't have a liferaft?

2. What's the likelihood of you having to use it?

3. Does the cost outweigh the worst possible impact above?

AND if you haven't done it then do do the sea survival 1 day course!!!

My answers:
1 .You, and others whose saftey is in your hands, die
2. Unless your answer is "never" then answer to no 1. over-rides your answer
3. What price do you put on life?

 

[SAWDOC]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

In the absence of a liferaft for whatever reason, I would not do any coastal cruising without an inflated dinghy or a solid dinghy towed astern.

 

[knewboater]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You see the orc 6 man cannister liferaft "plastimo" I have was new in 2002, cost to maintain in 2005 was £180, cost to maintain this month £486,( the magazines seem to say don`t buy the cheaper ones), so approx. cost to date of this particular one inc.purchase is £1,866 over 6 years so far, and yes what price safety, I did ask what do you do and I bet the vast majority don`t have one.
However, thanks for your replies.
RGH

 

[Searush]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I have never had or required one in 35 years of Irish Sea cruising. Mostly inshore/ coastal (where the rocks are!) lots of strong tides (11m springs) overfalls and even a traffic separation zone. Have done passages to Ireland & IoM and not felt a need for one.

Yes, the consequences of sinking without one are dire. But yacht sinkings on shortish passages - like mine, are rare, very rare. I can live (or die) with that. Why do we have to get emotional blackmail to buy liferafts? Aside of oceanic passages, has anyone on here ever used one in earnest (ignoring pool sessions)?

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Not suggesting you are. I can only assume that the capsize was the charter boat that was overwhelmed in the Needles Channel. One crew survived in the boat. A liferaft was not deployed and it is unlikely that a liferaft would have made any difference to the outcome because two of the crew were swept overboard and the other drowned by being trapped underwater in the boat which stayed afloat and was washed ashore.

Still interested in the Thames estuary incident as it does not sseem to appear on any MAIB report.

 

[Loginname]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

That's much how I feel about it too.

In the Fastnet didn't more people die in liferafts than died on boats? Possibly a false sense of security?

In any event, by all accounts people who have spent any time in a liferaft in real conditions always say that they wish they were dead!

Of course a liferaft is desirable, but I think the implication that it is essential in all situations is a little O.T.T.

I wonder how many of those who reckon a liferaft is essential have not had theirs serviced this year, or don't carry an EPIRB, or who have out of date flares, or have taken a short cut on maintenance, or have not filed a passage plan etc etc. All of these things could be argued as being "essential".

Safety can't be 100%, but it can be managed.

 

[peterb]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Don't forget the Ouzo. The MAIB report says that if they had had a liferaft they would probably have survived. And don't forget the Wahkuna. They did have a liferaft, and used it. They were spotted by a ferry some 6 hours later (if I remember correctly) and survived. Without that liferaft would they have survived to be spotted? Would they have been spotted at all?

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

The Ouzo comment is overstating the case. This was almost certainly a catastrophic event and it is unlikely that a liferaft would have been deployed effectively. There are no reported cases in MAIB reports where a raft was successful in such (very rare) incidents.

Wakhuna is a very different case as she took some (relative) time to sink and the abandon ship was in an organised manner. It was also almost calm and in daylight. However, in a similar case (Megawat) which also sank slowly after a structural failure, the raft failed to inflate. Fortunately there was another yacht close by which rescued the crew.

Leave you to draw your own conclusions

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

It's like god; if you believe use it, if not don't.
Nicki

 

[Csail]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I just bought one after reading some MAIB article. I reckon swmbo and i would be fine without (just drysuits and epirb) but having 3 yr old son on board prompted me to buy one. Also we do a lot of night sailing!

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I just had a look at your Bio......and yes, I can see why you think as you do.....

I think though, that you are ignoring the fact that a lot of people just simply cannot afford a liferaft, and make do with other arrangements.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forget about my bio, I think the way I do, because I am most of the time working & responsible for others on board. I know that the sea will KILL you if not treated with respect. Also, I definitely don't want to die either & exposure will KILL.

Regarding cost, this is simply bullshit!!

How much is a life worth??

How much do you pay for your household 'FIRE/contents Insurance policy' & how many times have most of us seen a Fire Engine up our street? Probably very few times!

So why do you spend/afford several £100's to replace a few houshold trinkets like your TV/DVD/etc, which can easily be replaced, then question why/if the very item which will probably stop your wife claiming on your life insurance policy (liferaft), is too costly?

I think some consideration regarding your priorities is necessary!

Your life versus your house contents?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
A difficult one obviously!

Regarding the Ouzo, if their liferaft had been fitted with a hydrostatic release on deck, would they have survived?

Probably.

To those who state that they have sailed 1000's of miles & never needed one, well done.

However, that thought will be of little consolation when you are in the water & hear your crew/family dying all around you, whilst awaiting the helicopter, that you decided to rely upon getting quickly to your mayday, rather than rely upon your own resources.

How many pockets are in a shroud for God's sake!

 

[knewboater]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Exactly,but I have sailed on all types of boats and most of my friends only hire liferafts for channel type crossings,there must be ideal times when one is able to be used, not in fog tho. there is no time to deploy if you are hit by a large ship, only time maybe to turn and run with it to knock off 5 knots of speed. I agree mostly with "searush"and keep fingers crossed for the future!

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding cost, this is simply bullshit!!

How much is a life worth??

How much do you pay for your household 'FIRE/contents Insurance policy' & how many times have most of us seen a Fire Engine up our street? Probably very few times!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh gawd - here we go - another "bubblewrap everything because it is safer" post ...

Do you:

Wear a crash helmet, knee and elbow pads whilst walking down the road? You could be hit by anything or trip over a stone so you should really.

Put your lifejacket on and inflate it before going afloat? What if the gas bottle fails?

Do you have a LR in your tender? What if that sinks on an ebb tide ....

Put your lifejacket on and have your survival suit ready when walking along the beach? What if a rouge wave comes in?

Have a full first aid kit complete with leg splints and defib unit about your person the whole time? What if you fall off a curb and have a heart attack?

Is there a Fire extinguisher and blanket ready for deployment when you light a BBQ or operate any electrical equipment? It could catch fire ....

Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk. I'm one of those reckless individuals that doesn't wear their LJ all the time - I didn't even put it on last weekend /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif - we don't have a liferaft either - with the sort of sailing we do this chances of needing one are so slight that I'd rather spend the money on items that may actually see some use - ensuring that we don't need the LR to start with ....

A lot of sailing is about risk management - do you have a safety line on when going up the mast - are you expecting the main line to fail? If not, could the spare line not fail too? Should you put a 3rd line on?

Should you be going out in weather where you deem the LR to be of importance - are you expecting your boat to fail - if so, shouldn't you look at resolving those issues first ... what would cause a boat to sink?

1) Mast coming down and puncturing the hull - check the rigging - replace it, have a redundant spare, have bolt croppers to get rid of it as quickly as possible
2) Keel falling off - buy a boat with an encapsulated keel
3) Seacock / Skin fitting / Pipe failure - get the highest possible quality fittings, inspect often, replace before they need it, have bungs/padding available, have suitable pumps and buckets at hand
4) Collision - difficult to mitigate against - could be you are hit by another craft or you hit a submerged object in the water - for the first, make sure you have RADAR and know how to operate - take avoiding action as early as possible, for the second - how about considering making the bow section a sacraficial bow - fill in the forepeak stowage with suitable buoyancy - make the door to the forepeak watertight. Have a keel and rudder design that won't fall off when hit
5) Rolling/pooping - don't go out in weather (or forecasted weather) conditions that would make this a possibility ...
6) Fire - Have additional automatic fire extinguishers onboard in the likely places, make sure all your electrical items are suitably protected, remove gas appliances/bottles, do not allow smoking on board.

Any other reasons you may wish to take to your liferaft?
For many, the risk is so low that it really isn't worth purchasing a LR - you'd do better spending the £500 on a family holiday somewhere hotter!

 

[deep denial]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

hear hear!!

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Well said me hearty! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But I fear that you may be speaking to the hard of sailing! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Ah well my lovely.....there you go again, making assumptions and blasting away at one size fits all..........

Forget your bio..........hardly, I was simply pointing out that because of what you do, it was easy to understand why you might feel like you do. Trouble is though my old son, not everyone sails like you do, wives, families...crews......Ugh, not me skipper!

See you get them on here banging away about life jackets, liferafts and all manner of things, what they all tend to forget, is that they are talking about what they feel is right for them, and don't give a thought that maybe what they are advocating is not right for others...........different ships different longsplices as they say /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Oh gawd - here we go - another "bubblewrap everything because it is safer" post ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read my post again!

I said check your priorities!

If your priorities seem to be to ridicule anything sensible, so be it.

Are you saying you cross the road, without checking there isn't a big red bus about to flatten you??

No, of course not!

So, in doing so, you are equally guilty of what you stupidly call "bubblerap everything", or more formally known as "looking out for yourself".

I don't 'expect' to use my liferaft, but I personally would not want to explain to a coroner/wife/mother/child, why their loved one died, simply because my head was so far up my arse that I thought it was safer without one!

What about you??

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
I said check your priorities!

If your priorities seem to be to ridicule anything sensible, so be it.


[/ QUOTE ]
There you go again - in your view - having a liferaft is sensible, therefore, not having a liferaft is NOT sensible ... so you are prescribing to me that (should I wish to appear to be sensible) I should have a liferaft on board ...

My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required. My crew are all adults and if they wish to purchase a liferaft then they are more than welcome to suggest it - it isn't a "NO LR required" - more "We've got better/more important things to spend our money on"

[ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you cross the road, without checking there isn't a big red bus about to flatten you??

No, of course not!

So, in doing so, you are equally guilty of what you stupidly call "bubblerap everything", or more formally known as "looking out for yourself".


[/ QUOTE ]
Bolx - that isn't it at all - your analogy is checking the course and weather before setting out ... wearing a crash helmet, knee and elbow pads is just incase you haven't noticed that big red bus and try to cross anyway - at which point you are protecting yourself against your own stupidity and blindness ...

[ QUOTE ]
I don't 'expect' to use my liferaft, but I personally would not want to explain to a coroner/wife/mother/child, why their loved one died, simply because my head was so far up my arse that I thought it was safer without one!

[/ QUOTE ]
Luckily, my head isn't up my arse and I didn't assume yours was up yours either - but it seems that some ppl want to PREACH AT me ..
Guilt trips on explaining to family why you didn't have the right safety equipment really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Can you not accept that some ppl do not do the sort of sailing that makes using a liferaft even a remote possibility?
Sticking with the solent for a moment (as that is our main sailing area) ... rescue services are within 10 minutes should the terrible really happen (you're going to need help if you take to the LR ... unless you intend to row it ashore) - I wouldn't think we'd be in the water for more than 30 minutes, and we quite often go for a swim anyway ... so no real issue there ...

as a final note ...

DO NOT assume you can PREACH AT Me.... I am an adult, I can make my own decisions based on far more detailed knowledge of my requirements than you will ever know, you are welcome to make suggestions, but don't consider me (and thousands of others) an idiot just because I don't concur with your way of thinking.