"Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[RivalRedwing]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Not all are hysterical. Me, I don't give a fig whether the skipper of another boat carries a liferaft or not - all down to personal choice (and I will not lecture others on the subject). But, Tranona states:
"The only cause of foundering which is partly outside my control is collision. And even there the 5 cases in the last 12 years have so little in common, both in the way they occured and location that the only way of avoiding them is vigilance and good seamanship from both parties."
Implying that collisions only happen betwen two vessels. The published example I cited earlier in this long winded and occasionally heated thread was that of properly sorted yacht which struck a submerged object at night in a F6 in what could be described as coastal waters (Thames Estuary). The skipper tried a couple of methods to summon help before taking to a liferaft as the boat sank, he and his son then spent about 8 hours in the raft before being rescued. If you read the report you will surmise that he was very grateful that he had a liferaft. Now this could be argued to be an isolated case but it most certainly did happen. To exclude it from consideration / deny the possibility as Tranona seems to do does not help others to form a balanced view and enable them to assess the risk based on the type of sailing they intend to pursue.

 

[WindFinder]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
If you read the report you will surmise that he was very grateful that he had a liferaft. Now this could be argued to be an isolated case but it most certainly did happen. To exclude it from consideration / deny the possibility as Tranona seems to do does not help others to form a balanced view and enable them to assess the risk based on the type of sailing they intend to pursue.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was only excluded from consideration because you refused to point to evidence that a dinghy wouldn't have saved them. Shackleton, Bligh and many other's have proved that an open boat can be a very effective LR. The Ouzo crew lived for hours without even a dinghy in equivalent conditions.

The fact you attach so much importance to an individual case could be seen as evidence that LR save very few people indeed.

Let's leave the idividual cases and look at the wider picture. What the chance of me dying in a leisure yacht this season. How much is that chance reduced by a LR?

You could win the debate in one hit - if you could show that sailing without a LR was half as dangerous as smoking I'd never step on a boat without one.

 

[RivalRedwing]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I do not deny that a dinghy might have saved them as could, possibly, various other options / permutations, but I do observe which one did save them. I do not attach importance to this case over and above the fact that it happened and the cause of the sinking should be included in Tranona's considerations / statements. The likelihood of needing a liferaft is very very low indeed (and I certainly hope that you, like me do not need one this season). Let people make up their own mind based on all the information, and the sailing they intend to pursue - it is certainly not about winning or losing a debate.

 

[jonjo]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Tranona you are one of the few talking sense in this thread.

Why would anyone buy a liferaft before first investing time and money sticking foam padding along the sides of the boom, then enforcing the wearing of crash helmets for all family crew?

A boom is a demonstrable killer or human cabbage maker, statistically speaking.

A powered anchor windlass is a evil potential finger amputator, but these get hardly any press compared to Titanic style founderings.

 

[WindFinder]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
Tranona you are one of the few talking sense in this thread.

Why would anyone buy a liferaft before first investing time and money sticking foam padding along the sides of the boom, then enforcing the wearing of crash helmets for all family crew?

A boom is a demonstrable killer or human cabbage maker, statistically speaking.

A powered anchor windlass is a evil potential finger amputator, but these get hardly any press compared to Titanic style founderings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said!

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
Your arguments are well reasoned and clear. The counter arguments are hysterical. Take satisfaction from that and give up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Too late - I've realised that I've got more chance of drowning in the bath - so I've fitted a liferaft above the taps - just to be safe ..... also - I won't have a bath without lifejacket complete with crotchstrap .... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[DavenHelen]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

So basically 2 camps:-

1) Have a LR as a last resort should everything else wrong.
2) Don't have a LR unless you are going offshore or near big ships or are out in Bad Weather or your boat is not 100%.

With cost v. value appearing to be the deciding factor.

 

[Chrusty1]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

No, three camps....Number three is, don't have a liferaft, because I just can't afford one.

Why is it that people on these forums totally disregard the guys who are in their thousands out there, that are sailing on a shoestring, and really just cannot afford all the fancy gadgets / toys that most of you seem to take for granted?

Regarding LRs, a lot of small boats just don't have room for one, I am talking sub 18 footers here, in any case you really don't expect a chap with a boat that is worth say just 1500 to blow 500+ of his hard earned on a LR??

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Very basically - with Cr1's additions - some ppl just cannot afford one - but I'd expect those ppl to sail accordingly. (obviously not all will ...)

As with everything - Cost/Value is a major deciding factor.

LRs are now as low as £500 ... that is still a significant sum for many. If they were available for a few quid I think you'd find more ppl would have them - as they then become a throw away item.

Price is all relative - there are many on here sailing around in £100k+ boats ... there are just as many (if not more) who have Sub £20k boats. You then have to factor in the running costs - When F-i-L had a 22'er the most significant costs were swinging mooring and insurance ... the whole season cost less than the cheapest LR. Lift in/out was using the club facilities - and cost nothing.

Now - with a 30'er the most significant cost is winter storage - either afloat or ashore - this doubles the running cost each season.

 

[Peter_Chennell]

RNLI Sea Safety contribution

Several people have contacted me and asked me for an opinion on the preceding debate, and as the RNLI has been quoted at some stage I thought I would add a comment. The original post asked the question about whether a life raft was really necessary for coastal cruising and the ensuing discussion migrated somewhat from that to talk about the decision process about whether one should buy one not through the principles of probability!!

Because of this migration and with no offence to the original poster, I think maybe the wrong question was asked, especially in light of opposing views espoused. Perhaps it should have been "What are the best precautions I could take in the event of me being forced to leave my boat in the event of some catastrophe or other?

The safety equipment carried by recreational boaters usually depends on three things, in my view. The first is the type of boating undertaken, the second is budget, and the third is attitude to risk. All of us make decisions according to the constraints that those three factors impose. Thus the safety equipment for coastal sailing must be to a level that ensures, as far as possible, survival to the point of being rescued.

There is no doubt a life raft can keep you warmer and drier for longer than if you were alone in the water, similarly it is easier to find a life raft rather than an object about the size melon, darkly coloured in a dark sea. There is however a continuum, or a spectrum, of amelioration of the risk of dying if you enter the water. At one end is no lifejacket and nobody knows you're there. At the other end is a life raft and a very exact position where the SAR assets have a good chance of finding you. Given the availability of the PLBs and EPIRBs and given the length of time a lifeboat will take to get to a casualty, with the implication that he or she will not expire of cold water shock of secondary drowning (this implies he is wearing a lifejacket, for if he were not then our chances of finding somebody alive are smaller); then a reasonable thing for a coastal sailor to do would be to make sure he is wearing a lifejacket and to set off a 406 PLB or EPIRB. To offer this opinion I have in mind sailing only a mile so from the coast.

So what I'm saying is that a life raft is best, especially if you have alerted the coastguard with a reasonably accurate indication of your position through a Ch16 VHF mayday, or better a very accurate one through the GMDSS system, next best on the survivability scale is keeping afloat, and an accurate position report (PLBs have homing frequencies for us); and around the zero survivability rating is not to be wearing a LJ, and a vague, or no, position indication. We hate searching when we know the likelihood is that we’re a looking for a body.

A poster did comment that our SEA Check service did not recommend a liferaft for anything other than extended passages, and this remains the case, however SEA Check advisers would urge coastal offshore sailors to think about whether they should have one. Our stance is always to encourage people to think about their own circumstances and take whatever action they think necessary. We don't want to be accused of imposing nanny state rules, rather to give information based on our experience and what crews see, and let the boater decide for himself.

I hope Scuttlebutters find this helpful, please don't try and draw me into an extended debate as I would find it very time-consuming as a one fingered typer, but I will monitor any further debate in case there is anything useful I contribute.

 

[fireball]

Re: RNLI Sea Safety contribution

Peter

Thank you. For me, you have confirmed my position in that a LR is a desirable, but not essential part of the safety equipment on board my boat.

Now - can we get a view point from an RYA official? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[LadyInBed]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Yes, was a time when not many had VHF let alone Radar, epirb, AIS and 'SeaMe' so maybe a life raft was more important then.
In the scale of safety kit I am afraid I rate all of the above higher than a life raft, as they all (except epirb) help prevent an accident, a life raft is an 'after the event' device. So for me it is a nice to have, not a must have.
When I start doing long offshore passages it will then become a must have.