"Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I have attempted to do that - or at least something similar such as estimating the number of yachts crossing the channel by trying to get figures for the number of British visitors to French ports, but there is no data.

In many ways it is a "good thing" because there is no need for anybody to report their sailing movements therefore no base for statistics. This of course may change when the proposed cross border procedures come into force, or some of the people participating in today's hot thread about police boarding boats get their way!

With regards to yachts foundering and liferaft usage it is completely irrelevant because the incidents are less that 2 a year - and some years none. So it does not matter whether it is 1000 or 100000 movements or 1 million or 10 million miles, the probability of a foundering occuring is statistically unmeasurable. And the numbers per year are static or declining, depending on the period you take, despite the obvious increase in activity.

 

[Sailfree]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You among a few others have posted a lot of sense but unfortunately people get blinded by a certain viewpoint.

A liferaft is a sensible safety feature I carry 2! Its a charter boat so an 8 man for the coding and a 4 man with hydrostatic release when there is only 2 of us. In itself though a Liferaft would not be high on my list of priorities in listing safety accessories.

Someone on here mentioned the Ouzo incident. On X channel I ask crew to buy a simple pack of 10 handheld parachute flares and carry them in their salopette pocket- cost about £35. That may have made all the difference in the sad Ouzo affair. Next would be a waterproof handheld VHF clipped to your lifejacket. One person survived much longer in the water than the other 2 as he had crotch straps on his LJ - cost £7. As personal GPS EPIRBS are now down to £325 I think that would be next (I keep one attached to my LJ) and lastly a Liferaft is good and would have a higher priority if I sailed in cold waters with very limited immersion survival time. If on a limited budget I think I might put Radar a higher priority than a Liferaft.

I do wish more people really thought about the risks and took the appropriate safety measures for their circumstances rather than this one size fits all.

I also like to sail in a way (hence the priority for Radar) with correct preparation that results in all this being unnecessary and a total waste of money!

 

[jordanbasset]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

A very useful post that makes a lot of sense in that it measures the bang for your bucks and has certanly made me think about a lot of things

 

[Loginname]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
Not my opinion, its the opinion of every seafaring authoritative body on the planet, including our own MCA, HMCG, RYA etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so. The RYA does not say that a LR is essential. If you refer to the RYA booklet which I mentioned in an earlier post you will see what the RYA recommends.

The RNLI does not either. When you get a Sea Check done by them (You've had yours done I hope. Anyone who hasn't is being reckless with their family /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif) the Check list clearly does not indicate that the RNLI regards a LR as essential for coastal boating)

No one is saying that a LR is not desirable. They are saying that it is not essential in all cases. There are other things which are more important and it is foolish for anyone to pin all their hopes on a LR. The whole of the safety regime (sorry to sound like a H&S guru) on a boat needs looking at; equipment, training, experience of crew, type of craft, sailing areas, etc etc.

There are many life threatening things which could happen on a boat for which a LR would be no use whatsoever. Have you got all those covered?

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I suggest you read the fishing boat accident reports from MAIB where there is overwhelming evidence that lives could be saved if hydrostatically released liferafts were used. However the situation is very different as these boats go out in weather when you and I are tucked up in front of the fire.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"when you and I are tucked up in front of the fire."

& I am sometimes on one, which is why I like a LR onboard!

 

[nct1]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

A seatbelt or airbag is a safety device that is there as a last resort, sensible people will drive according to their own limits of skill (rather like sailors), and have various other safety devices that will reduce the chance of having an accident (good brakes / abs), and if an accident should happen, if the speed is not excessive, the collapsable safety zone will give a good degree of protection. However, as you have pointed out there are some occasions when the crash is beyond your control, and that is where the seat belt and air bag will help as last resort. Much like a life raft.

I agree the number of fatal car accidents is much larger than the number of drownings, however the number of car miles is also vastly greater than the number of sea miles sailed. But it would be false to conclude that someone that only drives a small number of miles annually does not need a seat belt, a seatbelt, like a liferaft is there as a safety device of last resort when something unexpected happens.

With respect to the force 7 and foundering, I have been on more than one occasion in an unforecast force 7, had I struck say a sub merged container, or an internal plumbing fitting had sheered letting in sea water, or water ingress caused a short that sparked a fire ( I could go on), I would have had to look at plan B or C.

Having listened to the VHF traffic during that time, the emergency services were dealing with quite a lot, and in one case the boat had a weak battery but luckily another boat relayed their VHF calls. Given the amount of emergency calls they had on both occasions, it was clear that resources would have been stretched to cover every call. From that I surmise that sometime I cannot rely on the emegency services to get to me on time, I may need to have an alternative (i.e. a LR)

So yes my plan is that the life raft is a complete waste of money, and I would only contemplate getting in one as the boat went down underneath me.

By definition, you will not have anyone on this forum that needed one but did not have one !

 

[Sailfree]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]


By definition, you will not have anyone on this forum that needed one but did not have one !

[/ QUOTE ]

You may wish to edit this comment as I believe in your title you have responded to the wrong person.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

No, the liferaft does not act in the same way as seat belts and airbags. They are passive and a raft is active - you have to positively deply one in circumstances that usually make it very difficult.

With the possible exception of collisions all foundering incidents are the result of a skipper or crews actions - not a third party at the time (unless you count the designers that get keels wrong).

You can imagine all sorts of situations when an incident might occur, but the fact is that they don't and lead to foundering. Many of the things that you imagine have the potential to cause a yacht to founder, but do not get that far because the crew deal with the problem or the rescue services come into play.

Have a sound yacht, stay on board it, keep away from big ships and dont go out in bad weather and you are likely to be OK.

 

[RivalRedwing]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Tranona
I fear the MAIB records you repeatedly quote as justification do not give the full picture. I've located the Thames estuary incident. Yachting Monthly Dec 04 p72-74 ('learning curve') I suggest you read it:
Father and son in an apparently well sorted yacht strike an object in the outer Thames at night ( in June) - boat starts to rapidly sink, 5 - 10 mayday calls gained no response two flares likewise despite ships only a few miles away. Stepped up into the liferaft at 0210 BST, fired flares when commercial ships in the vicinity but none respond, eventually recovered at 1010 BST. Without a liferaft these two would be dead (despite being in coastal waters etc etc). Incidents where a liferaft saves lives in coastal situations do occur - would you agree??

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Many thanks for this, Moonfire. I will look it up. I quote the MAIB because it has a statutory duty to investigate any accident in UK waters or involving UK vessels. It does this at 2 levels. A preliminary investigation and then, if there is a major issue a full report. The incident you refer to does not seem to show in either category, so either it was not reported through the normal channels or I have missed it somewhere along the line.

There are, of course many life threatening incidents that never get anywhere near the MAIB and are usually recorded by the rescue services, particularly the RNLI which has no obligation to publish details. They do, however analyse the incidents to inform the advice they give on safety.

From my experience in observing the development of legislation and good practice in the commercial shipping field, improvements have been made, particularly in such areas as fire prevention and stability since the change in attitude that allows sharing and publication of incidents. CHIRPS is a good example of this approach.

So, although the MAIB and MCIB data may not be perfect it is much better than peoples' personal imaginations and beliefs that often underpin opinions stated in posts.

"Moral Panic" is a well known concept in mass communications exemplified by such incidents as Devil worship in the Orkneys and systemic child abuse in Lancashire, none of which had any basis in fact. Would be a pity if such phenomena spread into Yachting.

 

[WindFinder]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]

Father and son in an apparently well sorted yacht strike an object in the outer Thames at night ( in June) - boat starts to rapidly sink, 5 - 10 mayday calls gained no response two flares likewise despite ships only a few miles away. Stepped up into the liferaft at 0210 BST, fired flares when commercial ships in the vicinity but none respond, eventually recovered at 1010 BST. Without a liferaft these two would be dead (despite being in coastal waters etc etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would a dinghy not have saved their lives? Was it cold? Was there a demon sea state? They were at sea in the LR for 8 hours - depending on the wind direction in a dinghy they could have probably rowed ashore!

Indeed in June they'd probably have lasted for hours in the water, if they'd had a waterproof VHF or Epirb they could maybe even have managed without an emergency craft of any kind.

I'd be very interested to have the additional risk of not carrying a LR quantified. The current debate is too wooly to be useful.

 

[alant]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I quote the MAIB because it has a statutory duty to investigate any accident in UK waters or involving UK vessels.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only vessels > 8 metres

 

[fireball]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

So does that make a LR essential for those vessels the MAIB doesn't investigate?

 

[DavenHelen]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
With regards to yachts foundering and liferaft usage it is completely irrelevant because the incidents are less that 2 a year - and some years none. So it does not matter whether it is 1000 or 100000 movements or 1 million or 10 million miles, the probability of a foundering occuring is statistically unmeasurable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me understand this, you are saying that if the whole leisure fleet does 10,000 between them in a year and has 1 foundering incident it is the same as if they do 1,000,000 miles?

You can measure the incidents but you have no data on usage involved. For road vehicles the total annual mileage is around the 300bnmark, with serious accidents at 1 every 10m miles travelled (rough figures based on a quick trawl). With those odds against having a serious accident, maybe we shouldn't bother with seatbelts and airbags.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

No, what I am saying is that in any one year the probability could be absolutely zero. If there were 1 it would be 1 in x, still close to zero. Unlike road accidents where there are thousands to analyse the number of yachts foundering is so small and in circumstances that will not affect the vast majority of yachtsmen, that statistical analysis is not appropriate. This is why you have to consider and learn from each individual event - then you will get the themes that I have identified.

 

[DavenHelen]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
No, what I am saying is that in any one year the probability could be absolutely zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

[pedant]
The number or percentage could be 0.
[/pedant]

 

[RivalRedwing]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Weather a squally SW F6 -7 veering W5. A dinghy might have been enough (I doubt it in this case) but I suggest you read the article to get the skipper's version and then pass comment.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I have now read this case. The reason that it does not show up in the MAIB reports is because it is a Dutch yacht and the incident occurred outside UK territorial waters. This does not, of course make the experience any less valid and confirms my findings that liferafts are very effective in organised evacuations of slowly sinking yachts, particularly in relatively benign conditions.

There is, of course far more data available worldwide, but it is not necessarily accessible or comparable. A similar review of the French data (where liferafts are compulsory) would be an obvious start as would the US Coastguard. However, this is way beyond the resources of a unfunded curious yachtsman such as me.

Picking up on a couple of other points as the potential use of a dinghy (perhaps part inflated) is suggested as an alternative to a liferaft. In this sort of situation it may well work, although as far as I know there are no recorded incidents from which one can draw any conclusions. But organised evacuations are a minority and in the extreme cases, where even purpose designed rafts have problems, what chance a half inflated dinghy?

The Dec 2004 YM also has two sobering articles on liferafts. They do not give one much confidence in the product. One new Zodiac failed to inflate; it was a Zodiac that failed to inflate in the Megawat incident; I have a Zodiac on my boat. Maybe I should stick to the day job.

 

[RivalRedwing]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

[ QUOTE ]
"Moral Panic" is a well known concept in mass communications exemplified by such incidents as Devil worship in the Orkneys and systemic child abuse in Lancashire, none of which had any basis in fact. Would be a pity if such phenomena spread into Yachting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you read the article, which was factual.

I find the link of whether or not to by a liferaft based on factual data with the two exmples you give of 'moral panic' tenuous in the extreme.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Liferaft\" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Pedant

Probability is the ratio of events to sample (or population) size. You can express it as a ratio (x in y) or if you have a £2 calculator from Tescos you can turn it into a percentage. The concept and meaning is exactly the same.

So if there are 2 incidents each year and 10000 voyages, the probability expressed as a percentage is .0002%. If it halves next year to 1 and voyages stay the same it is .0001%. Both are close to zero. If the number of voyages halves to 5000 and there are two incidents the percentage rises to .0004%, still close to zero.

The number of incidents is not related to the number of voyages or number of miles. They are not randomly distributed across the population, but only occur in a narrow range of specific circumstances.

None of the key conditions for statistical analysis using probabilities therefore exists.