Liferaft experience

[prv]

I would say that fire should be included.

Agree. As well as your French fireman, I'm aware of a Sunseeker type motorboat (not necessarily an actual Sunseeker) that suffered a fire underway. Not sure of the cause but I believe it was engine related. The two crew abandoned to the raft.

That was in inshore waters (possibly in the Solent) and they were rescued promptly by the lifeboat so arguably they might have survived in lifejackets in the water. It was mid-winter though, so the raft was definitely preferable!

Pete

 

[fisherman]

ISO 9650 liferafts and epirb/plb now are obligatory for fishing vessels 7-10m. Fair to say this is a response to history of losses, and/or risk level.

Most of the 35000 seamen who perished in WW2 did so from exposure: in a closed raft saturation is reached in twenty minutes and you stop losing heat to evaporation.

 

[pandos]

I find the purchase and service costs prohibitive. In the Solent you will be beating rescuers off with a stick. For longer trips I rent. Guaranteed all up to date. Delivered to the boat.

That is not always the case....,,,

My raft was bought from an approved service station supplier, it was sold as a brand new unopened unit that had been hired out fir a few weeks so the outer casing was marked and scratched... I became suspicious after a few weeks and just on a hunch rang the manufacturer who told me that it was a few years old, I opened it and discovered it had been serviced and in fact the contents were already out of date at that stage,

I sent it to the UK for servicing and repacking in a "3 year bag" i opened it last year, it having been in storage for a good few years to discover that the foam sheet had not been replaced so the bag was work through from moving in the casing, thus allowing rain water into the raft which reacted with silca jel packages to corrode away the handles on the paddles,,, no other damage....notably the batteries would not have lasted 3 years from the date of packing, the packages had been cut to conceal this fact but the manufacturer clarified the date from the stamping on the batteries themselves

Look at the first two reports to see rented rafts that failed...

and the third which explains why not to go to sea in a tub of sh....t, and also just how long in relatively busy waters one can remain unseen....

http://www.mcib.ie/reports.7.html?r=118

http://www.mcib.ie/reports.7.html?r=87

http://www.mcib.ie/reports.7.html?r=85

I will be buying a new raft next summer, and repacking my existing one but I think fire extingushers, reliable bilge alarms/pumps with some means to fix hull damage, an epirb, a plb and a tracker are probably better investments....

 

[Sybarite]

Fwiw this is from a 2015 post

Yes, it's a last resort, but it's better to have one than not have one!!

I personally think with something like a life raft, you need to go top of the line... especially if you go out into deep waters (especially for commercial purposes). The Revere offshore elite or the Viking RescYou would be my top choices. These life rafts can get a bit pricey, but Citimarinestore.com has them very decently priced. Looking around, there are a few other deals as well one.

FWIW in a recent comparitive test in France, the Plastimo came out on top

Liferafts

Previously the French authorities would only accept rafts homologated by the Bureau Veritas. The market will be opened in the near future to rafts certified by other recognized organizations which will increase competition. This said, Plastimo rafts came out on top on a recent comparative test.

The differences between an unlimited category raft (H) and a coastal raft (C) are :

Distances from shelter : H : unlimited C : 60 nm.
Norm ISO : H : 9650 – 1 C : 9560 – 2
Inflation temperature : H : -15° +65° C : 0° +65°
Insulated floor : H : Yes C : No
Freeboard : H : 250mm for 4 persons, 300mm for > 4 C : 200mm for 4 persons, 250mm for >4
Interior floorspace per person : H : 0.372m² C : 0.250m²
Buoyancy per person : H : 96 l C : 82 l
Automatic deployment of the tent H : Yes C : No
Luminosity of the external lamp : H : 4.3cd C : 0.75cd

In practice there is not a great difference in price between the two (25%) so most of the rafts being manufactured are the H category.

 

[Sybarite]

This is what I would really like if cruising long range as a couple :

http://www.portlandpudgy.com

 

[Tranona]

I would say that fire should be included. I would guess that there would be more losses to fire than from the loss of a keel. It is certainly what I consider to be the biggest risk when sailing.



Epirbs are now obligatory in France (as is a handheld vhf in addition to the fixed) for offshore rated boats i.e. more than 60nm from a port.

Fire at sea is extremely rare - at least involving evacuation. Not unknown, and those reported in the UK have mostly been MOBOs.

Losses of keels are almost always racing boats and usually the result of poor design or incorrect construction.

The incidence of fire may be greater than we think because it is often something that can happen and be resolved without abandoning the boat. That is an example of the central point I was trying to make - there is a real shortage of this type of data and analysis so there is much reliance on random press reports and anecdotal evidence.

It is instructive to look at US data as it is compulsory to report incidents there. Overall you get a similar pattern to the UK in relation to types of serious incidents - that is very few involving coastal and offshore sailing boats. Fires for example are similarly rare on this type of craft but endemic (if that is the right term) in small sports boats (mostly non coastal). Hardly a surprise.

 

[fisherman]

My bro jumped off a burning yacht, called Midnight, in about 1984, think it might once have belonged to Heath. The startling thing was the speed of it, they had an Avon on the foredeck and didn't manage to get it over, liferaft worked.
He thinks there was a gas or other fumes issue, it happened on (petrol) engine start up.

 

[SteveGorst]

Most recent one, yesterday night.
Off Cap de la Hague, at 2340h the MRCC receive a cospas-sarsat distress message (report does not say if epirb or plb).
They send a Mayday Relay, a few vessels are in the area, both civilians and military. They also send an helicopter.
Rescue vessels are guided by the homing signal of the beacon, though they do not know if it is the boat or an MOB.
Moments later, at 0042h some flares are seen a few miles from Aurigny.
The helo finds a sailboat aground, they send a diver and he finds it empty. Not far from there, they find an empty liferaft.
They eventually find the skipper afloat, wearing a thermal suit. They recovered him and brought him to the hospital, he was found in good conditions.
In all, less than a couple of hours, a night rescue.

The report says "the 68yo man fell outside the liferaft", unfortunately no more details for the moment but it appears one can also fall out of the raft, a case for liferaft tethers?

https://www.premar-manche.gouv.fr/c...vetage-dun-skipper-dans-le-raz-blanchard.html

This rather confirms my current theory that having a thermal suit would be a valuable addition if you were seriously preparing for the worst. To be honest I would be quite happy with just a thermal suit, it will work, no servicing costs, wear it at night and keep out the cold, however it may not cut it with the wife so will be buying the liferaft anyway.

 

[awol]

........ so will be buying the liferaft anyway.

May I suggest that before you do you give her a Xmas present of a Sea Survival course - she may not be so keen afterwards.

 

[Roberto]

This rather confirms my current theory that having a thermal suit would be a valuable addition if you were seriously preparing for the worst. To be honest I would be quite happy with just a thermal suit, it will work, no servicing costs, wear it at night and keep out the cold, however it may not cut it with the wife so will be buying the liferaft anyway.

There is also an individual component, how one behaves.
As accidents may happen in any moment, would you actually wear the thermal suit in any moment, whenever you go sailing? Myself, I surely would not, so the liferaft buys some risk protection somewhere else.
Also, in several sinking reports one reads "we just had the time to launch the liferaft", presumably because the boat sunk in a matter of minutes: would you rather spend those minutes wearing the rescue suit, or launch the liferaft, gather some material, flares vhf etc? Personal decisions.

e:to

 

[Saltsail]

Must stick my nose in here!) Was heavily involved in cruising and sailing during last year. I just cant imagine a situation where a sail boat will sink without getting physical damage!? instead of getting life raft, how about inflatable dinghy with grab bag? Material used for dinghies is much stronger than LR, floats either side, plenty of hooks build in for securing your self or provisions. Floating and survival qualities can also be adjusted.

 

[fisherman]

This is where every discussion ends up. You don't need it at all...until you need it, and then you need it to be good, (and as exposure is probably an issue, enclosed). You can't imagine a sinking situation, but just imagine it, and plan for it if you so desire.

 

[Graham376]

Must stick my nose in here!) Was heavily involved in cruising and sailing during last year. I just cant imagine a situation where a sail boat will sink without getting physical damage!? instead of getting life raft, how about inflatable dinghy with grab bag? Material used for dinghies is much stronger than LR, floats either side, plenty of hooks build in for securing your self or provisions. Floating and survival qualities can also be adjusted.

Don't know where you were "heavily involved in cruising or sailing" but you don't seem to have any knowledge of failed skin or stern tube fittings or exhaust failure which can let a lot of water in plus of course fire. A dinghy can easily get swamped or tip you out, even in reasonably mild conditions. May be OK in calm sea but that's all.

 

[dom]

A dinghy can easily get swamped or tip you out, even in reasonably mild conditions. May be OK in calm sea but that's all.

Ahh, but the forum's received wisdom is to lash a "half-inflated dinghy" to the foredeck. No idea what magic properties half-inflation bestows

 

[fisherman]

Ahh, but the forum's received wisdom is to lash a "half-inflated dinghy" to the foredeck. No idea what magic properties half-inflation bestows

Exactly what my bro did AFTER the incident detailed in #67. He never needed a liferaft since, but nearly did during 19 hours pumping and bailing in a S gale 12 nm off L'Aberwrach. (Cracked frames that were Ok in quiet weather, in way of the mast partners)

 

[Graham376]

Ahh, but the forum's received wisdom is to lash a "half-inflated dinghy" to the foredeck. No idea what magic properties half-inflation bestows

Let them dream on. Last resort if no other option then it may save them if they can hang on to it in warm waters but certainly no substitute for a proper life raft with deep ballast pockets and a cover.

 

[dom]

Exactly what my bro did AFTER the incident detailed in #67. He never needed a liferaft since, but nearly did during 19 hours pumping and bailing in a S gale 12 nm off L'Aberwrach. (Cracked frames that were Ok in quiet weather, in way of the mast partners)

Seriously, I agree with everything you say and would suggest that the voice of experience spoken from the sharp-end of a fishing vessel should be taken seriously!

Re Graham; I was told by a friend in the US Coastguard that the expected survival time in 10C water is: (i) oilies + decent underlayer equates to something like 35% after two hours in the water. (ii) This increases to 60+% with a survival suit which is wet inside (i.e. deploying on deck while drenched), (iii) rising to 99.9% (ex-drowning) with a dry one and two underlayers.

The exhaustion/unconsciousness point occurs at approx 1/3 to a 1/2 of the ultimate survival time at which point the casualty becomes 100% reliant upon LJ/Sprayhood etc. These numbers are the mean of a statistical average, so some casualties will do significantly batter and others significantly worse.

His advice: If you don't have a drysuit/survival-suit, then a thick wetsuit + fleece underneath oilies, + hat, + gloves is next best before getting into raft, and failing that a grab gag with dry thermals and other gear to try and sort once inside.

 

[RupertW]

Let them dream on. Last resort if no other option then it may save them if they can hang on to it in warm waters but certainly no substitute for a proper life raft with deep ballast pockets and a cover.

Logically there is no point whatsoever in a liferaft for a sailing boat. The combination of high cost, lack of stability, high risk of use and very very low likelihood of need mean that we would all be safer spending the money on something else to reduce the likelihood of sinking, or even not spending it at all.

But just as the best way to reduce car accidents would be to replace the airbag with a 6 inch spike, so liferafts allow the illusion of safety if everything goes wrong and so make the more imaginative sailors a bit more comfortable so increasing the risks they are willing to take with leaky stern glands or old seacocks.

 

[Sybarite]

This is where every discussion ends up. You don't need it at all...until you need it, and then you need it to be good, (and as exposure is probably an issue, enclosed). You can't imagine a sinking situation, but just imagine it, and plan for it if you so desire.

The inflatable roof support also provides extra buoyancy if the worst comes to the worst.

 

[Tranona]

Must stick my nose in here!) Was heavily involved in cruising and sailing during last year. I just cant imagine a situation where a sail boat will sink without getting physical damage!? instead of getting life raft, how about inflatable dinghy with grab bag? Material used for dinghies is much stronger than LR, floats either side, plenty of hooks build in for securing your self or provisions. Floating and survival qualities can also be adjusted.

You really need to look at the accounts of actual deployments then you may realise how unsuitable an inflated dinghy is as a life support system. Almost all liferaft deployments are in adverse conditions where a dinghy would be useless. There are examples of dinghies being used, Robertsons and Baileys being the best known. However in both cases the boats sank slowly after collisions with whales so there was plenty of time for preparations and in both cases the dinghy was a complement to the liferaft, not a substitute.

Neither of these cases has much connection with what happens in our coastal waters. Ocean sailing is very different and requires different thinking about survival in the event of foundering. Even then when you look at accounts it is clear that no two events are the same and success in survival depends on the crew making the best use of what they have - plus a big slice of luck. Unfortunately we rarely find out about the failures.