Legend 356 - no stability curve

[webcraft]

Re: Forwarding my post to Hunter

Hmmm . . .

Messages are posted here for the delectation of forum users, and you probably should not copy them and forward them to other people . . . couldn't you just have sent them an e-mail telling them about the topic / URL etc?

Oh well, never mind . . . it will be interesting to see what, if anything, they have to say on the matter. I notice that YM staff have been conspicuous by their absense in this thread.

- Nick

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: Forwarding my post to Hunter

This thread started on Thursday, the day I left, coincidentally, to test the new Bavaria 36 in Majorca. I got back yesterday and posted a reply, but my computer crashed before I could sent it. I thought I would wait another day to see if there were any more comments.

I am not sure what you expect us/me to say. By and large you seem to be pleased that we have pointed out Legend's refusal to supply stabilityinformation and their reasons for it.

You, Scuttlebut readers in general, have clearly formed your own opinions about the reasons why Legend have taken this course. You are, as juries are told when a defendent declines to take the stand, entitled make such inferences as you may wish.

If we were to say clearly in print that the company's reluctance to show us figures was due to the fact that they were bad, as is being suggested here, and they then produced before a libel jury a perfectly acceptible set, we would look a little silly and probably a little poorer

Simon Jinks did this test on his own so I have not sailed the boat. I did, however, see it at the boat show and I think SImon's comments on the interior design and build are reasonable and fair.

Some of you seem to be saying that you welcome Simon's report as being more direct and 'honest'. Others seem to be saying the opposite.

Simon, as an active Yachtmaster Examiner, and a man with a great deal of experience of boat designand performance, is a great addition to the strength of the YM boat testing team and I am sure that his observations and judgement will be valued by readers.

Umm! Anything else you would like me to comment on?


JJ

 

[dk]

Re: Forwarding my post to Hunter

Yes - How did you wangle a trip to Majorca to sail a Bavaria??
Rgds DK

 

[Guest]

Re: Forwarding my post to Hunter

I have to say I enjoy reading Simon's reviews and thought this one was as fair as any. Hunters and Catalinas are to the US market what "the French" are to the UK: not taken seriously by many sailors but perfectly acceptable boats for the size and price if the intended sailing is, shall we say, not too challenging (seemed to me, in the USA, that most big Catalinas were used as caravans) and Hunters, well, let's just say they have had a "speckled" history.

Simon can't say it's a turkey and nor should he. What is telling, though, is always what is NOT said in many reviews. The regular readers should, therefore, have no problem in judging what praise is missing.

Keep up the good work guys ... just don't let them off pathetic chart tables & sea berths (please).

 

[PeteMcK]

Contessa Curve - Misleading Comparisons

What's been misleading a lot of people for years now is that the curve bandied about for the Contessa includes the additional buoyancy of the coachroof as it progressively becomes immersed. That's what produces its characteristic kink. The published curves for many (most/all?) other boats have been computed for simplified models with flushed decks - this will generally give worse results than the actual case merits. The calculations for the hull alone are, or were, onerous enough without adding the complexities of the coachroof geometry. PROLINES lets you do it at the strike of the ENTER key, but you first need a full 3-D digital model of the boat along with the position of its CofG. I'd be interested (with an open mind, I'd better add) to see a "flushed deck" curve for the Contessa.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Flush decks - weak excuse.

Come off it Pete - compared to investment all the mass market manufacturers have got in computing of various sorts, the resource implications of writing a program to calculate AVS are minimal.

But why bother? Just take one off the production line and roll it. They have to do it to the Vendee Globe boats.

 

[EdEssery]

Re: Flush decks - weak excuse.

>>...They have to do it (roll test) to the Vendee Globe boats.

...and to lifeboats... and they crash test cars to get type approval.

Why not roll a sample of each production boat as part of development. Unlike the cars, they would be usable afterwards so the expense wouldn't be too much.

How much extra would you be prepared to pay for your boat if you could see a video of it in a roll test during development?

Ed

 

[PhilipStapleton]

Re: Flush decks - weak excuse.

Do they do any real tests for the CE mark Category assessment - or is is all just theoretical?

 

[Dallas]

I went to the Earls Court boat show and spent some time on-board Legends 466. My immidiate impressions were that it was an extremely well kitted out boat. The salesman (although he insisted that he was not a salesman) was both courtious and extremely knowlegable about the boat.

It never occured to me to ask questions about AVS and as a novice I probably would not have understood the answers anyway.

My point is, how many liesure sailors understand (or even care) about the more technical aspects of the boat they own or are considering buying. I understand the safety implications and realise that it must be a factor when deciding on what boat to buy but most boats (both small and large) spend most of their time empty in a marina berth.

Having said that however, I was considering the Legend 466 as a permenent "live-aboard" and planned to do some extended cruising. I was literaly 6 weeks away from my purchase - now I'm not so sure.

Has anyone on the forum had any experience with actualy sailing the Legend 466?

Dallas

 

[kingfisher]

CE assessment

RCD Directive, essential requirment 3.2.c: The stability, freeboard, buoyancy, and flotation requirements of the boat may be assessed by acceptable methods that are applicable to the boat type, design category and manufacturers recommended maximum load.

In all cases, except for boats of Design Category D and C<12m, a Notified Body is required to have assessed this Essential Safety Requirement

Acceptable methods are defined as tests, or calculations, or controls carried out by the manufacturer, or on his behalf.

In simple words:

For cat D and C-12m, the manufacturer is taken on his word, for A, B and C+12m, a notified body has to ascertain the manufacturers claims.

Stability assessment by the manufacturer can be done by a simple theoretical calculation.

Obi-Wan
http://sirocco31.tripod.com

 

[webcraft]

Of course stability doesn't matter in a marina, or for anyone qho never goes out for more than a few hours day sail . . . but you might want to sell the boat again.

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: Forwarding my post to Hunter

Paid for by Bavaria, of course And they bought me two dinners and Elvstrom gave me a natty little navigators bag. So you can expect a glowing review with all critisisms glossed over and such good points as there are praised to the heavens. I expect they will be doubling their advertising as well.

But then you cynical lot never believed anything else anyway.

JJ

 

[Dallas]

I agree but then we once again come back to the "more people keep their boats empty in a marina for most of the time" syndrome and so the vast majority may not care about the stability aspect and would therfore not worry when buying the boat. Since my last post I have been to both the UK and US Hunter Boats user web sites. I have read reports from people who have never had any stability problems with their Legends (I read mostly about the 460 (now 466) because that is the one I am interested in) and had been out in all weathers. Maybe Hunter are telling the truth - maybe they don't publish the AVS because they genuinely think it wont be understood properly. But, on the other hand .....

Dallas

 

[Twister_Ken]

You might like to read http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/hunter28.htm

 

[Dallas]

Quite a scary read. However the review is almost 4 years old and the boat itself was designed in the 80's. It's like comparing a late 80's Rover car with todays models. Advances in production techniques, better materials and the simple fact that the consumer simply wont put up with junk any more lead me to believe that while Hunter may have produced sub-standard boats in the past, they don't any more. After all you don't get to be one of the biggest leisure boat builders by producing shoddy boats. The Legend series is a production boat and is therfore built to a price. After reading all I could in the last few hours it seems that there are just as many people for the boats as there are against. I guess it comes down to finance and personal choice. A few weeks ago I was convinced that the Legend 466 which I saw at Earls Court was the one for me and was only a few weeks away from placing a deposit but after reading everyones coments, now I'm just confused ....

Dallas

 

[Twister_Ken]

46' is a BIG boat. OK when out on the water in clement weather, but a real handful when you need to work the boat in a blow unless you've got several able bodies aboard.

Also boats that big are a pain in the butt when parking them shorthanded. Plenty of windage in a x-wind, a long way to jump down onto a pontoon, quite a lot longer than many finger pontoons, heavy ground tackle, chunky warps, etc.

Do you really need all 46 feet?

 

[Dallas]

I understand that the 466 is a big boat and you're not the first to wonder why I want it. However as I intended to live-aboard I would like as much interior volume as possible. As for parking the thing, I have not yet read anything that tells me that it is more difficult than any other boat of comparable size. Quite the contrary, all the reviews I have read have stated that it is extremely responsive while going astern and is easy to bearth. After jumping off, slipping, and ending up flat on my back on greasy pontoons more times than I care to remember, I agree that it's a long way down. I'll just get someone else to jump off - problem solved.

Dallas

 

[billmacfarlane]

You shouldn't take all the adverse comments here re your proposed boat totally seriously. Legend and Bavaria seem to be the whipping boys at the moment but remember that both companies are very successful and there are many hundreds of satisfied customers who are more than pleased with their boats. Have you sailed one yet ? If the design satisfies the criteria you've set yourself for Heaven's sake go and play with one. Ultimately the only person that can say whether the boat suits you is yourself.

 

[vyv_cox]

Errm...pardon?

[It's like comparing a late 80's Rover car with todays models.] There may have been dramatic improvements in car design since the 1980s but the same does not seem to be true of boats. They will have bigger heads, more berths, more shiny bits, more upholstery, bigger drinks cabinets and perhaps a cockpit table. But will they be more seaworthy, seakindly, safer in a blow? Many of us would doubt it. My boat was designed and built in the 80's and, in the same price bracket, I'd take it any time over a modern equivalent.

[Advances in production techniques, better materials and the simple fact that the consumer simply wont put up with junk any more......] Unfortunately the demise of so many builders who didn't use fancy lightweight materials, laser cut panels, production line techniques etc, and who didn't produce junk, proves your statement untrue. In order to build down to a price that will suit the mass market the manufacturer is forced to cut corners and to push the marina/open sea compromise as far as possible to the left. Those savings may show up just when the purchaser least wants them.

 

[kingfisher]

Not cynical, just jealous Nm

nm

Obi-Wan
http://sirocco31.tripod.com