Legal Eagle Wanted

[DeeGee]

Hello, haven't been in this room for a long time. My friend SailFree heard me moaning and suggested I post here.

I am looking for a solicitor to look at my problem vs UKHO.

In 2003, I purchased TotalTide 2003 which is supposed to issue me with a Permanent Key. However, if I ever have occasion to change my computer or a hard-disk, then the old 'Permanent Key' ceases to work and I have to apply to UKHO to remove my old PK in order to get a new one. Down the years, I have done this 11 times. In their most recent communication, they use the phrase that their PK license is a 'known problem', but they now refuse to clear the old PK record... they go a lot further than that, but such detail is not needed just now.

I am looking to find a solicitor who has some experience of contract law and would look at the documentation and the latest situation to let me know if I have a good case and if they will act for me. I should make it clear I am not looking for some freebie help through SB, but I have approached the solicitors who have acted for me on house purchase and they say that it is not their forte.

Should someone be interested, please contact me with a PM.

I do hope I do not get lots of people posting to this thread that I should not even consider using a 2003 version because it will be too inaccurate. That is not the case, the harmonics used in the package are good for years after I am dead, as long as 5 mins either way on times and 0.25m either way on heights. It uses the published tidal diamonds in conjunction with the tide tables to forecast currents, just as we do in our pencil and paper way, it just does it faster. As a heights and rates package it is without equal (at least as far as I know!).

 

[Wandering Star]

I don't know how much TotalTide 2003 cost you in 2003 but I'm guessing if the software / product key has been updated 13 times, most people would consider you'd had excellent value for money whatever the terms of the original agreement! Shelling out £150 - £350 per hour for a solicitor (twice that for a Counsel) in order to make a point of contract law especially when software capable of performing (I imagine) similiar functions is available for sub £25, would seem a little crazy.

Or am I missing the point?

 

[DeeGee]

I don't know how much TotalTide 2003 cost you in 2003 but I'm guessing if the software / product key has been updated 13 times, most people would consider you'd had excellent value for money whatever the terms of the original agreement! Shelling out £150 - £350 per hour for a solicitor (twice that for a Counsel) in order to make a point of contract law especially when software capable of performing (I imagine) similiar functions is available for sub £25, would seem a little crazy.

Or am I missing the point?

Well, I must have written my posting badly, for you have not grasped the point. I have had NO software updates, since I have always been running the same software, same original DVD. I bought it because of the unlimited time of use. However, the software needs a key to run. It is called a permanent key, but if I change my computer or a drive on the computer, or add external drives, then the Permanent Key ceases to work. There is a built-in utility, which, when I enter my original non-permanent key, will generate a new PK. However, that utility has never worked properly, so each time I needed a new PK, I had to get the old one cleared down with a phone call or email. The software was quite expensive... I have forgotten how much... but as it was indefinitely licenced, it was a good deal. Now UKHO have decided not to clear down any more, so the software becomes useless.
The package looked at all the tidal diamonds in a chosen sea-area, calculated the state of tide and thus interpolated to show the currents. The screen would be displaying the equivalent of one of the NP books, and one could step forward or back in time, for any time past or future.
If you could point me in the direction of any software which does same or similar, I would be eternally grateful.

As to the point of shelling out for a solicitor, I happen to feel strongly about being treated high-handedly by any big organisation. I would not 'shell out' had I not got a sound case.

I rather hoped to not give birth to a thread where people give their opinions about my intentions, my stupidity or otherwise. Thank-you. Let us take as read that I am clearly a bit whacky !

 

[prv]

The screen would be displaying the equivalent of one of the NP books, and one could step forward or back in time, for any time past or future.
If you could point me in the direction of any software which does same or similar, I would be eternally grateful.

That's hardly special or unique functionality - I would expect any tidal software to do that. It's often built into plotters and navigation programs as well.

The one I use is an iPhone app by Imray called simply Tides Planner - afraid I can't suggest a PC equivalent as I don't have a computer on the boat.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

What are you trying to achieve? Would be very surprised if their T&Cs did not cover this eventuality. If you are hoping to use contract then you will have to show a breach of contract. As it is unlikely that you will be able to force them to reinstate the software the best you could hope is for compensation which is unlikely to be for more than you paid in the first place.

Best of luck trying to find a lawyer who would be interested in taking on what seems to be a relatively trivial matter.

 

[pvb]

What are you trying to achieve? Would be very surprised if their T&Cs did not cover this eventuality. If you are hoping to use contract then you will have to show a breach of contract. As it is unlikely that you will be able to force them to reinstate the software the best you could hope is for compensation which is unlikely to be for more than you paid in the first place.

Best of luck trying to find a lawyer who would be interested in taking on what seems to be a relatively trivial matter.

I have to agree. No matter how aggrieved the OP feels, he's on a hiding to nothing if he takes legal action. He can buy the current version of TotalTide for less than £100 a year - that doesn't buy a lot of legal time!

 

[[3889]]

If you are sure of your ground contractually why not follow the small claims route through Money Claim Online. No legal experience is needed for the informal hearings and I'm fairly sure your claim would be within small claim limits. There might be crown immunity for UKHO, though, in which case give up now.

 

[prv]

There might be crown immunity for UKHO, though, in which case give up now.

Seems unlikely - even the Army don't have Crown Immunity any more, and UKHO are a lot closer to the normal world of commerce.

Pete

 

[han34]

I am sure you coule find someone go 'take it on' provided you agree to pay their fees, which I don't think you could ever recover. Unless you had a LD clause when you entered info the contract (you would not have one so don't bother looking), the very best you could hope for is a percentage of the purchace price. If I bought something for twenty five pounds and it did not work, as it your case, the best I could hope for is my twenty five pounds back.

 

[savageseadog]

It will be a small claim if it ever went to court, you couldn't recover your costs so definitely not worth it. I would suggest you post the contract wording on here and conduct the claim yourself with our advice.

 

[DeeGee]

I am rather surprised at the superior negativity exhibited here. Perhaps savageseadog's suggestion is the most positive (thank-you ssd).

I reply as the comments arrived.
@prv - it IS special and unique. Please tell me another. Why do you think TotalTide is now £60-£75/annum?
@tranona - their t&c do not cover this eventuality, the licence is in perpetuity unless I terminate by buying a later copy. I do not need them to reinstate the software, I already have it and it runs, but the data is inaccessible until they issue a new PK to decode with.
@quiddle - yes, I have considered that, but I actually live in France so it might be a bit messy to do it myself through SCC
@han34 - LD, not known to me. Why invent things like that? What have you to gain by that? Is it some form of clever-dickness? It cost considerably more than £25.
@ssd - I will post a link to the contract wording tomorrow.

I would far prefer that people don't just line up to give their opinions on my behavior. If I want to be a fool, why not let me do so? Some more positive advice would be preferred, but I was simply hoping that I would get a professional response which may well lead to a professional opinion that I don't have a chance in hell, or perhaps, UKHO are just trying to trample me into the dust.

 

[DeeGee]

I expect that most people posting here will have various bits of licensed software... MS Office, Photoshop... these items become obsolete and it is one's choice as to whether to update or upgrade or just soldier on with what one has. In the case of MaxSea, my charting software, I can go on as long as I like, without paying for an upgrade - of course, in that case I might find a buoy disappeared or not know about a new one.

But in this case I do not have the choice. Ask yourself how you would feel if something you had paid to run on your computer ceased to run and you became helpless. Imagine if Microsoft had said XP will no longer run after 2013, rather than XP will no longer be supported.

This is an excerpt from their recent communication:

"You indicate in your second e-mail that you have encountered this situation before. Our own records
confirm that we have on 11 occasions since 2003 issued you with new keys, the last being in
response to a request by you dated 4 May 2011.
This is a known problem, but due to advances in technology and for reasons of safety we are
unable to continue to renew keys for older versions of TotaiTide."

Note the phrase 'this is a known problem'. Microsoft would not get away with that, nor Adobe. UKHO just do not want anyone to have a cheap version of their lucrative current offer. 'Reasons of safety' .. that is nonsense as the harmonics are good for another 30 years with errors mounting to about 1m in depth and 15mins in time. The package relies on the tidal diamond information which remains relatively unchanged year on year.

I repeat my surprise that my fellow forumites are so incredibly hostile.

 

[Wandering Star]

Hmmm, I haven't noticed any hostility, just opinions.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I repeat my surprise that my fellow forumites are so incredibly hostile.

What proportion of your original purchase price do you hope to recover as damages?

 

[st599]

From UKHO website:
Versions of Admiralty TotalTide up until the 2004 edition are no longer supported and the contract has now been terminated.

Somewhere in your End User Licence Agreement you'll find a statement of how each party can terminate the contract, which they've enacted. Remeber, you didn't buy the software, you bought a licence to use someone elses IPR under terms they set out.

 

[Concerto]

This is an excerpt from their recent communication:

"You indicate in your second e-mail that you have encountered this situation before. Our own records
confirm that we have on 11 occasions since 2003 issued you with new keys, the last being in
response to a request by you dated 4 May 2011.
This is a known problem, but due to advances in technology and for reasons of safety we are
unable to continue to renew keys for older versions of TotaiTide."

Note the phrase 'this is a known problem'. Microsoft would not get away with that, nor Adobe.

They have stated that "advances in technology" as a good reason for not issuing a new key. The software you are using is 11 years and in technology terms that is ancient. Are you still using the same computer as 11 years ago?

My advice would be to see how much they would charge you to upgrade to the latest version. Then argue that they have terminated your indefinte use of the old software, so what discount are they going to give you to ensure your continued use. This would certainly be the route I would follow as the legal field will result in little joy and you will probably remain without a working program.

 

[P4Paul]

The Law Society has a search feature to help locate specialist advice in your local area.

http://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk

 

[Colvic Watson]

I've a lot of sympathy with the OP. Remember that case in here a few years ago, chap had bought Mustos with a lifetime guarantee but when he went to claim, Musto basically said it was only for marketing and they didn't actually mean lifetime, they offered him 50% off a new set - which Mustos would still make a profit on! We put up with too much of this sort of thing and it's only by determined people actually putting their foot down that the rest if us don't get routinely shafted.

The OP bought a lifetime package and if the supplier now wants to wriggle out they should refund his purchase price.

As an aside, what the OP describes is produced in the same way on TidesPlanner on the ipad for £4 a year, unlimited scrolling backward and forward for currents and height data.

 

[MoodySabre]

My son, who is a solicitor, says he gets several people a week asking if they have a case in circumstances as hopeless as this one. He wouldn't waste his time or your money pursuing it.

 

[[2068]]

My son, who is a solicitor, says he gets several people a week asking if they have a case in circumstances as hopeless as this one. He wouldn't waste his time or your money pursuing it.

This is probably good advice, but it's still very annoying when it happens. If people want to run old software at their own risk, unsupported, the software vendor should not deliberately prevent the product from working by refusing to issue keys that prevent it's use.

I bought a copy of a Garmin BlueChart 2008 update a few years back, which for various reasons never got used at the time. When I called Garmin to get an unlock code, I was told they had decommissioned the server that issued the unlock codes!