Legal Eagle Wanted

[prv]

@prv - it IS special and unique. Please tell me another.

I already did, in that very same post - Imray Tides Planner. Here's a screenshot of the tidal streams round the Channel Islands I was using earlier today to plan our next visit:

Other names I'm aware of, but haven't personally used, are Belfield, OpenCPN, Navionics, and Neptune Navigation. I can't vouch for the quality of any of these, but the point is that displaying tidal streams is bread-and-butter for tidal software, not some special feature only available in your particular obsolete piece of software.

Why do you think TotalTide is now £60-£75/annum?

Because it's sold by the UKHO?

Pete

 

[SLC]

You must realise that the wording of the contract will be heavily weighted in favour of UKHO and within that wording will be a clause that relieves them of their contractual obligations legally, within reason.

I very much doubt a solicitor would undertake this case, but good luck if you decide to go further.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

You must realise that the wording of the contract will be heavily weighted in favour of UKHO and within that wording will be a clause that relieves them of their contractual obligations legally, within reason.

I very much doubt a solicitor would undertake this case, but good luck if you decide to go further.

And that's the key of course. It's impossible to predict the outcome of any litigation without seeing the contract. Litigation should the absolute last resort though - the first would be to point out exactly what part of the contract they are breaching and what the remediation would be under the contract (unless law takes precedence of course).

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I expect that most people posting here will have various bits of licensed software... MS Office, Photoshop... these items become obsolete and it is one's choice as to whether to update or upgrade or just soldier on with what one has. In the case of MaxSea, my charting software, I can go on as long as I like, without paying for an upgrade - of course, in that case I might find a buoy disappeared or not know about a new one.

But in this case I do not have the choice. Ask yourself how you would feel if something you had paid to run on your computer ceased to run and you became helpless. Imagine if Microsoft had said XP will no longer run after 2013, rather than XP will no longer be supported.

This is an excerpt from their recent communication:

"You indicate in your second e-mail that you have encountered this situation before. Our own records
confirm that we have on 11 occasions since 2003 issued you with new keys, the last being in
response to a request by you dated 4 May 2011.
This is a known problem, but due to advances in technology and for reasons of safety we are
unable to continue to renew keys for older versions of TotaiTide."

Note the phrase 'this is a known problem'. Microsoft would not get away with that, nor Adobe. UKHO just do not want anyone to have a cheap version of their lucrative current offer. 'Reasons of safety' .. that is nonsense as the harmonics are good for another 30 years with errors mounting to about 1m in depth and 15mins in time. The package relies on the tidal diamond information which remains relatively unchanged year on year.

I repeat my surprise that my fellow forumites are so incredibly hostile.

Without knowing the full circumstances it does sound like a load of rubbish but they haven't rescinded your licence, they've failed to renew the key. What does the contract say about transferring the licence? The usual get out for this situation is that you still have the licence, you are simply choosing to use it on an unsupported platform. Whether or not that's true would depend on the wording of the contract.

 

[han34]

For the record, I have not invented anything, Liquidated Damages would state your redress if the other party failed to comply with the terms of the contract. Very common in contracts between companies.

 

[[3889]]

Seems unlikely - even ty don't have Crown Immunity any more, and UKHO are closer to the normal world of commerce.

Pete

Don't know about the army but Royal Mail certainly have,
as I found to my cost when they replacrd a phone valued and insured for £50with a book of 1st class stamps. That was in June this year.

 

[guernseyman]

On their website UKHO say that your contract has been terminated.
Save your time and money, look at your T&C and see whether they are breaking the contract by terminating it.
If not, all you can do is purchase a replacement.

 

[savageseadog]

There's far too much exploitation of the consumer by big businesses, the sale of software "licenses" is one of the biggest ones. Bill Gates has got very rich from selling software that never worked to people who never owned it or could properly use it due to it being full of bugs. "We no longer support this version" they say so move on and buy the new one complete with its problems.

 

[cliff]

http://www.wxtide32.com/

Freebie, working until 2037

 

[rptb1]

Note the phrase 'this is a known problem'. Microsoft would not get away with that, nor Adobe.

They can and do get away with it. (For example, my expensive licensed copy of Photoshop can no longer be re-installed if I ever lose it.) Because this kind of thing is common practice in the industry you might have difficulty with a case.

 

[bedouin]

Without knowing the full circumstances it does sound like a load of rubbish but they haven't rescinded your licence, they've failed to renew the key. What does the contract say about transferring the licence? The usual get out for this situation is that you still have the licence, you are simply choosing to use it on an unsupported platform. Whether or not that's true would depend on the wording of the contract.

It doesn't matter what the contract says. Software purchases like this are covered by the sale of goods act provided they were delivered physically as a dislr or CD. The problem is that if he wins a claim the payout will relate to the original purchase price so hard to see how it is worth employing a solicitor as you would not recoup the costs.

As suggested you could issue a claim in the small claims court - that can be done on line and costs about £100 that you will get back it you win.

UKHO are unlikely to defend as that would cost them money and they may well make an offer to settle

 

[sailorman]

http://www.wxtide32.com/

Freebie, working until 2037

watch out for the CA RP that this download dumps on your machine :disgust:

 

[DeeGee]

They can and do get away with it. (For example, my expensive licensed copy of Photoshop can no longer be re-installed if I ever lose it.) Because this kind of thing is common practice in the industry you might have difficulty with a case.

As an aside from the main point, you should be able to reinstall, please PM me if you really want to.

 

[DeeGee]

OK, if you really want something boring for your Sunday morning reading...

Thanks for all the relatively helpful replies. I withdraw my complaint of negativity. In my OP, I avoided chapter and verse as I thought it would be irrelevant as I was asking for someone to whom I would supply said C&V. However, since many posters refer to what the contract may or may not say and I did promise to give a link, I have posted the following documents on line.

Anyone interested enough to do more than cast their bread on the water can go read at http://tinyurl.com/MyTotalTide

*Pages from UM for getting a new PERMANENT Key (My capitals, it was shouted!)
*The contract
*An excerpt from an email from UKHO which says how proud they are that in recent versions, the PK procedure works!!
*The final document received from UKHO where they effectively unilaterally introduce new terms and termination of the contract.

I would be very happy to get newly informed comments. For example, find for me the bit where they can terminate at any time?

I should add that I am (supposed to be) an expert in IT. I know that the data we are talking about must be kept in a platform-independent database and they can do as they want with it. The lady who has done this umpteen (11) times before says she can still do it, but is not allowed to.

Finally, it is the nature of my work that I regularly update my computing resources and each time I change, I get this situation. I am retired, but luckily get commissions associated with my legacy.

 

[DeeGee]

I already did, in that very same post - Imray Tides Planner. Here's a screenshot of the tidal streams round the Channel Islands I was using earlier today to plan our next visit:

Other names I'm aware of, but haven't personally used, are Belfield, OpenCPN, Navionics, and Neptune Navigation. I can't vouch for the quality of any of these, but the point is that displaying tidal streams is bread-and-butter for tidal software, not some special feature only available in your particular obsolete piece of software.



Because it's sold by the UKHO?

Pete

Sorry, accusing others of not reading my posts...

Well, that looks almost identical to the sort of screen I would see in TotalTide 2003. Presumably you can zoom in to look at local currents? That is the reason I am so aggrieved at losing TT, as every tidal diamond, even those in French charts, is the 'root' of one of those little arrows and the figures given denote the actual interpolated current at that time, using the stored diamonds tables with the state of the tide at Cherbourg or Dover to calculate that which takes me ages, and I quite probably will make a mistake!

I found the software, it looks very good, but it is marketed as Tucabo Tides Planner and unfortunately it only runs on Apple iProducts. I don't have an iPhone, only and iPod and that is not enough. Maybe it will become available for Android or even run on an old-fashioned Windows OS platform, like W7 or W8? Yeah, dream on...

 

[sailorman]

Buy an Admiralty tidal atlas NP 250

 

[DeeGee]

Sorry, but I misunderstood your posting.
What you show is no more nor less than a page from NP 264. It is a tidal stream atlas, not a dynamic display of currents at that time and place. I have NP 264

, it is to TotalTide what a comic strip is to the Star Wars film !!

With that page, IF, repeat IF, you do it properly, you will need to go to this page in NP 264 to calculate the instantaneous current at this particular time

The whole point of my frustration is that TotalTide does the Computation of Rates and simply shows you an arrow with the current at this place, at this time, on this day !!!

Now, again, please tell me another package that does that ?

 

[DeeGee]

Buy an Admiralty tidal atlas NP 250

Sorry, not too good for Channel Islands... you clearly do the Cherbourg run fairly regularly !! (hehe)

 

[dgadee]

I have some small knowledge of these issues, and can see why the OP wants the original contract terms (on which he believes he purchased the license) to be upheld. However, he has had the supplier produce a new key 11 times in the past which must have some financial impact upon the supplier. Is the supplier to continue for the next 50 years supplying a key every year or so? I think that argument might not go down so well even in the small claims court, even though technically - if the license agreement provides for it - he has such a right. A judge may or may not say the supplier has acted reasonably in providing keys on 11 occasions and that all good things eventually come to an end - the gamble of litigation.

Most solicitors would say forget it. But there's a lot of pleasure to be got from going to the small claims court if you have time and inclination (and win). My wife was in antiques once and took another dealer to the small claims court (on my encouragement) and she learned an awful lot about the legal process. She won, but only by the skin of her teeth. Gave her many happy hours in retelling the story.

 

[Tintin]

I had a read. You are probably right and have a case.

But what loss or damage have you sufferred - i'm not being obtuse, but trying to get you to reasonably quantify it financially because anything legal through the courts comes down to money.... how much you may get, vs the cost of lawyers and the probability of the outcome.

I have learnt that no matter how sure YOU are of your case, and how damning the evidence is, when it goes to civil court it is 50:50 and is ultimatley down to how succinct and clear your case is presented. This means a good barrister too.

Remembering you could have the other sides costs awarded against you, or you could "win" but not get a costs order in your favour, lets look at the maths...

The new annual cost is £77.

Lets say you reckon you have 10 years of sailing time left (dont get sniffy, keep reading), your total loss would be £770.

Let's say a barrister costs £300 per hour. They need 2 hours to review the papers and prepare, and then maybe 4 hours at court because even though the hearing may last an hour there will certainly be waiting time. So that is 6 x 300 =£1800.

A lawyer to prepare the papers and file it correctly will take roughly 6 hours at £250 per hour, so another £1500 plus court fees

So you are already up to £3,300 plus court fees.

It looks like you live in Brittany, so add in travel and accom costs x 2 (once to see lawyer, once for court), so lets round up to £4k

Now lets say you have more money than sense - would you gamble £4k for the 50:50 chance of winning £770 (plus your costs) or the 50:50 chance of losing it all and having to pay similar (probably larger) costs because the judge (or most likely magistrate - think parish councillor with power) is pissed off with people wasting his and the courts time?

Academically you may well have a case, morally you may have a case, but pursue it and you will almost certainly loose a lot of money.

And if you win, so what? Of course you will feel vindicated but that feeling will last all of 5 minutes, and your friends and spouse will soon get very bored of hearing about how you took on the man qnd won.

Who will be grateful to you? It won't make legal history, it won't be trumpetted as the "DeeGee" case. At best you will get two lines in a local paper.

And what about the stress and time you will waste? You cannot get those minutes back.

So why not just put up and shut up, pay the money for the new version, and if you want to spend time and money feeling good and having people say well done, why not donate £2k to a childrens cancer charity and go and spend 4 hours every week reading to kids that are dying?