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kieronriley

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I’m a member of a small boat angling club and for the last twenty plus years we have kept out tractors and caravan( used as a communication centre for all boats out fishing) we have been told by the Local council ( the owners of the compound and the same council that gave us the compound )that we have to get all our tractors and caravan out as they need to do some work nearby and there would be a health and safety issue if we don’t. Now this did and did not come as a shock , as we had been given the nod that the council want us out for good so they can redevelop the area. Now after twenty plus years they are just dumping us out , they have not offered us any alternative space ( compound) so for all those years we have maintained this compound and never received any complaints as to our use or behaviour in or around the compound. So does anyone know where we stand , we have never had , been offered or asked ourselves for an agreement as to our tenancy of the compound. Can we be just thrown out or should the local council be offering us an alternative accommodation. Hope there is enough information here for anyone who may be able to help. Thanks for reading this post. Kieron
 
With local elections in progress it's a pity you weren't able to take advantage of councillors short-lived willingness to please in the hope of being re-elected! (Always assuming local elections are being held in your area.)

I think you should consult a solicitor, get your MP on-side, and also use the press/media to try and get a campaign going . You know the sort of thing "Ordinary citizens' simple and harmless pastime under threat from council bullies/jobsworths and greedy developers etc."

Gifts of fresh fish to influencers might help!

Good luck! (y)
 
How often have they written to remind you that it isn't your land? IIRC, if they hadn't done it for 6 years, you acquire rights, but you'll need a good solicitor to sort out the shitstorm that's likely to ensue if you claim them
 
I recall what happened to a longstanding windsurfing / watersports business at Crosby Marine Lake when the local council decided they were going to seize the place for their own purposes. Sorry, it's not the opinion you're going to want, but you're almost certainly going to be done over, whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation. But I suspect you know how politics / democracy works in your corner of the world anyway.

Plan your revenge in other ways.
 
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Are you paying a rent for the land ?

Was there some form of written agreement when use of the land commenced ?

If so it is unlikely this 6 year rule would work, indeed it is mostly a myth anyway.

You use the word 'Gave' - was this written down ?

Gave could mean gave away permanently, but would more likely mean 'Gave', permission in which case it would likely be conditional permission i.e. such permission could be withdrawn at some future date.

As a club association you are likely viewed in law as a pseudo-commercial operation and as such consumer laws will likely not apply. Thus if they have granted you permission to use the land then this would likely be regarded a grace and favour matter, unless you are paying for its use, and as such the Council, as owners, can withdraw the G&F, or change the lease terms, possibly with very little notice. I very much doubt any Council would give land away, and indeed it is likely beyond their authority to give or indeed sell land under their direct control or ownership.

I know this sounds tough, but this is how Councils operate and rarely if ever will they forfeit ownership of any land they own or control, and they will know precisely what land they do own or control. It is also often the case that the original arrangement may have been arranged between the Council and a particular person within an organisation, and others may not understand the specific agreed terms and rules, especially where the originator has moved on or perhaps passed on. So whereas this might seem tough now, without knowing the precise original agreement or terms of land use, it is impossible to comment. You must also bear in mind a Council represents the interests of an entire community and not just a limited cohort, and are obliged to exercise rights and obligations without favour. They are also at liberty to change their rules, especially for non domestic users.
 
superheat6k said:
Are you paying a rent for the land ?

Was there some form of written agreement when use of the land commenced ?

If so it is unlikely this 6 year rule would work, indeed it is mostly a myth anyway.

You use the word 'Gave' - was this written down ?

Gave could mean gave away permanently, but would more likely mean 'Gave', permission in which case it would likely be conditional permission i.e. such permission could be withdrawn at some future date.

As a club association you are likely viewed in law as a pseudo-commercial operation and as such consumer laws will likely not apply. Thus if they have granted you permission to use the land then this would likely be regarded a grace and favour matter, unless you are paying for its use, and as such the Council, as owners, can withdraw the G&F, or change the lease terms, possibly with very little notice. I very much doubt any Council would give land away, and indeed it is likely beyond their authority to give or indeed sell land under their direct control or ownership.

I know this sounds tough, but this is how Councils operate and rarely if ever will they forfeit ownership of any land they own or control, and they will know precisely what land they do own or control. It is also often the case that the original arrangement may have been arranged between the Council and a particular person within an organisation, and others may not understand the specific agreed terms and rules, especially where the originator has moved on or perhaps passed on. So whereas this might seem tough now, without knowing the precise original agreement or terms of land use, it is impossible to comment. You must also bear in mind a Council represents the interests of an entire community and not just a limited cohort, and are obliged to exercise rights and obligations without favour. They are also at liberty to change their rules, especially for non domestic users.
Click to expand...
I've been involved in similar issues with church-owned land, and much the same principles apply; you ALWAYS have to consider the long term, as in centuries-long, when thinking about granting rights over land. We once refused a perfectly reasonable request, not because we had any particular objection and indeed, we would have preferred to grant the request, but it meant giving permanent, irrevocable rights over the land in question, and that we felt unable to do; indeed the legal advice was that we couldn't do it. And that was just over granting the use of land to provide a viewing splay for a proposed driveway to meet planning conditions. The principle is that you don't do anything that might prejudice your successors' rights over the land.
 
It might be worth while seeking advice from Greenwich Yacht Club, who used to occupy a bit of land and a hut by the Thames that was wanted for the Millennium Dome. I don't know what agreement they had, if any, with the landowner but they now have a fine clubhouse and seem to be thriving.
 
superheat6k said:
Are you paying a rent for the land ?

Was there some form of written agreement when use of the land commenced ?

As a club association you are likely viewed in law as a pseudo-commercial operation and as such consumer laws will likely not apply. Thus if they have granted you permission to use the land then this would likely be regarded a grace and favour matter, unless you are paying for its use, and as such the Council, as owners, can withdraw the G&F, or change the lease terms, possibly with very little notice. I very much doubt any Council would give land away, and indeed it is likely beyond their authority to give or indeed sell land under their direct control or ownership.

I know this sounds tough, but this is how Councils operate and rarely if ever will they forfeit ownership of any land they own or control, and they will know precisely what land they do own or control.
Click to expand...

^^^^^ This might be the case where you are, in some places Councils make a habit of selling off land & assets, usually to cllrs or their mates, has happened round here only too often.

It may be worth contacting Belton Way small craft club at Leigh on sea, they are a similar small club that has just fallen foul of vested interests & Southend Council who initially refused to renew their lease, I understand they at least have a way forward.
 
Before starting WW3 , ignore the armchair warriors and the hang and quarter them brigade...............
Has anybody actually got off their bottom and presented a reasoned argument to anybody who can actually do anything regards your dilemma to the council.
Explained the history of the club and its benefits to the local community and actually asked for help ?
Have you been paying a economic rent and rates or just keeping your head down and hoping the world is going to go away for ever.
Is it about time you coughed up for a proper lease somewhere and club fees went up the reflect this.
If nobody in the club is prepared to pay !
The council has to sweat all or any of its assets, the days of public largesse are long long gone, ask boaters on the Thames.
 
You (your club) holds a tenancy which has certain albeit limited protection under The Landlord and Tenant Act Part II.
My advice would be 1) talk to a senior officer in the "Land" department of the Council to get factual information about the Council's intentions and 2) talk to one or more Councillors and 3) if necessary contact a solicitor.
 
kieronriley said:
I’m a member of a small boat angling club and for the last twenty plus years we have kept out tractors and caravan( used as a communication centre for all boats out fishing) we have been told by the Local council ( the owners of the compound and the same council that gave us the compound )that we have to get all our tractors and caravan out as they need to do some work nearby and there would be a health and safety issue if we don’t. Now this did and did not come as a shock , as we had been given the nod that the council want us out for good so they can redevelop the area. Now after twenty plus years they are just dumping us out , they have not offered us any alternative space ( compound) so for all those years we have maintained this compound and never received any complaints as to our use or behaviour in or around the compound. So does anyone know where we stand , we have never had , been offered or asked ourselves for an agreement as to our tenancy of the compound. Can we be just thrown out or should the local council be offering us an alternative accommodation. Hope there is enough information here for anyone who may be able to help. Thanks for reading this post. Kieron
Click to expand...

Why don't you do a google on something like "UK shire council compulsory acquisition" I think the message is loud and clear. Sorry!:cry:

(It is the same in Australia)
 
kieronriley said:
I’m a member of a small boat angling club and for the last twenty plus years we have kept out tractors and caravan( used as a communication centre for all boats out fishing) we have been told by the Local council ( the owners of the compound and the same council that gave us the compound )that we have to get all our tractors and caravan out as they need to do some work nearby and there would be a health and safety issue if we don’t. Now this did and did not come as a shock , as we had been given the nod that the council want us out for good so they can redevelop the area. Now after twenty plus years they are just dumping us out , they have not offered us any alternative space ( compound) so for all those years we have maintained this compound and never received any complaints as to our use or behaviour in or around the compound. So does anyone know where we stand , we have never had , been offered or asked ourselves for an agreement as to our tenancy of the compound. Can we be just thrown out or should the local council be offering us an alternative accommodation. Hope there is enough information here for anyone who may be able to help. Thanks for reading this post. Kieron
Click to expand...
You need to look at the date of the lease as if it over 20 years old you may have better rights than a newer lease.
You must make sure that you are not behind with your rent.
Are all the people who signed the lease 20 years ago still active in the club.
Is it a Business Lease and if so does it say whether it is inside or outside the 1954 Landlord & Tenant Act
There is a website "LandlordZONE" which is quite useful and can give you links to solicitors who specialise in Landlord & Tenant Law.
You need to remember that Councils dont think like normal landlords where a rental return is paramount.
I rent land from a Council for longer than 20 years and they once tried to serve me with a Notice To Quit to take my rented land for something else to do with the Community
I agreed that they could take 10% of my rented land on the understanding that I had a 10% reduction in my rent and a new lease. Never happened.
Whatever happens dont sign a Deed of Surrender . Apparently money has to change hands They only offered me £1.
Councils hate publicity, I would contact your local paper and get them to do a story like "Fishing Club are facing eviction"
Also get in touch with a local Councillor as he/she will be able to find out what went on in the Secret Meetings which would have occurred when they discussed what their future pans for your land is.
You may need to get a Chartered Surveyor to work out if they do want you to move your tractors etc, if you can charge them to hire a yard to put the, what improvements have you done to the place, is the club house owned by you,
I believe my Council cant cope with all their lettings . I was written to in 2016 saying they want to do a Rent Review and they have not done it yet.
Council lose things, I was asked by the Councils Surveyor if I could send them a copy of my lease, which makes me think they have lost their copy.
When you say "You have been told by the council" was this verbally. Many Council Officials dont have the power to actually make an agreement They may have been sounding you out before they decide what to do.You may agree something with a council official (verbally) but when they go back to the Council he would have to report to a Committee what he agreed and the committee can decide they do not agree what was said by the official and it wont happen
Personally I would get a Landlord & Tenant Solicitor to write to the council and say that any correspondence relating to your tenancy to be addressed to him (subject to what he says)

Good Luck.
 
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For legal advice, ask a solicitor, not this or any other web forum. The best the forum may be able to do is to point you towards solicitors who have dealt with similar situations in the past and who may therefore be familiar with the relevant bits of the law.
 
I think that in the past there has been an intention from both parties to create a legal relationship. Even if there is no paperwork to that effect, you may have possession, or a lease, by efflux of time.

Perhaps the H&S issue is being used as an excuse by the Council to regain possession. If there is no risk arising (and you need an opinion from a qualified H&S person) the reason will fail.

I will try and find details of sailing club in Hampshire who raised a very similar question on here about 8 years ago.
 
Sutton in Ashfield, SC are closing at the end of the season, their council are wanting the site, to build a multimillion pound watersports centre ( can you see a white elephant approaching?)
They were established in the late 1950s, and even with legal action taken they lost...
 
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