leaving marina berth - help please

[westernman]

Why not? I left a marina berth in 30 knots in almost identical conditions with a novice crew a couple of weeks ago without any problem. Just take your time explaining what it is exactly you want them to do and check that they have a short end ready to slip with no knots, fankles etc. Preparation and communication are the keys.

The key is to keep the boat parallel to the pontoon for as long as possible using the mooring lines, but don't leave crew on the pontoon. Organise slip lines as described by Sgeir and others in such a way that the (onboard) crew can use the lines to keep the boat paralell to the pontoon for as long as possible as you reverse.

Once you slip completely the stern will swing fairly rapidly into the wind and you can motor clear directly upwind (AFAICS from your diagram that is). Have a 'roving fender' at the bow in case it still swings too early and grazes the opposite boat. Feet should not be an option iof you want people to keep them!

- W

All depends on the boat of course. But in the circumstances described by the OP, the above action will have me more than grazing the opposite boat but will have my bow sprit slicing off his deck saloon just above the deck!

Which would be a positive improvement to his boat IMHO, but he might not agree.

 

[CFarr]

Wow, thanks guys. Lots to think on there.
It seems there is no definitive answer. If I'm in that situation again I think I'll try warping the boat along the finger and then reversing out, letting the bow blow off such as Sgeir and others mentionned.

What I actually did was warp her along, get the crew on board and then had a slip from the bow, hanging the boat from the bow off the end of the finger. I hoped that I would then be able to drive the bow through the wind. The port kick didn't help that in practice which is why I needed 'feet fenders' to avoid my neighbours bow.
Every time I went astern to try and get more room the stern kicked more to port and there then wasn't enough room to drive the bow through and escape.
Stern out would defintely have been a better option.

many thanks again for all your replies.
Here's to the next marina visit (buttocks firmly clenched).

 

[Dockhead]

I'm surprised so many are advocating backing into the wind and out of the marina.

I would be afraid that the the bows will weathercock right into the boat to starboard that way. I would think that it would be much better to get the stern downwind in order to motor forward against the wind and out of the marina.

Once you put the helm over to starboard and the stern starts to turn downwind, the forces acting to turn the bow will decrease and the boat will stabilize. If, on the other hand, you put the helm to port to try to back into the wind, as many of you have suggested, those forces will increase and the bow will blow off violently and the boat will spin towards the boat to starboard. If you're fully clear of the boat to starboard by that time you might be ok but it seems like a great risk. You would need more space than you would doing it the other way.

Am I missing something?

To the OP: See what a great question you asked!

 

[tinkicker0]

I don't have any solutions that don't involve slipping lines , in close quarters and wind blowing. Maybe my experience is not adequate -- pray tell how you would do it?

+1

 

[earlybird]

I don't have any solutions that don't involve slipping lines, in close quarters and wind blowing. Maybe my experience is not adequate -- pray tell how you would do it?

I indicated my approach in my first post.
I admire these heroic suggestions but I'm for the low risk option.
IMHO, the risk, admittedly fairly slight, with a slip line in the hands of a complete novice, however well briefed, is that it won't. If it doesn't, then there's no fall-back manoeuvre available.
That's a recipe for an embarrassing conversation with the owner of the adjacent boat.
One or, better, two helpers on the pontoon, holding shrouds and/or a short rope from the bow should be quite capable of easily and safely guiding the boat astern until the bow is adequately clear. The boat crew can be deployed with roving fenders, deck brushes etc.etc.
If no-one's nearby, I'm sure any marina would happily provide a berthing hand to assist a weak crew in a difficult situation.

 

[jimi]

With a 36ft Bav and port kick, I'd do the :

Rig slip on bow, have some one holding shortish free end and ensure no knots or kinks. Hold tight in, stern held tight in with loop over cleat. Engine running rudder centre.

Flick loop off stern yell at bow guy to release , go full astern for half a boat length ease throttle and then turn stern into wind to reverse out. Easy Peasy.

Hesitation is fatal, use the throttle almost as on off switch and you'll be fine. Its easy to get into a pickle by underthrottling. Using prop kick in reverse and the kick of wash off the rudder in forward are key to close quarters handling of an AWB IMHO.

You've got several things going for you in this situation.
1)Port kick. Very useful to get boat turning to port before the water flow is effective over the rudder, however centre rudder initially to max speed and not over egg the turn.
2)Stern boring. Boat's stern will naturally seek the wind, use it.

I would'nt piddle about with warps etc at that wind speed

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Consider This

1. Position yacht 1/2 way down pontoon a al Sgeir. Bow line and midship line set to slip.
2. Rig a line from bow to outer finger pontoon cleat as a slip. This is your bow spring. The end to be slipped is figure of 8 around cleat on bow.
3. Rudder in centre, engine in neutral. Wait for any slight lull in wind.
4. Slip midship line.
5. Slip bow line.
6. Haul in on bow spring smartly (pull on the opposite end to the slipped) and with force i.e. not just taking up slack. Keep all line on board!
7. As bow approaches outer finger pontoon cleat, cast of slip end of bow spring.

The stern has no option but to drop off downwind as the bow spring is being pulled in. If you think its going too much try putting the wheel to port to counter i.e. drive the stern upwind. Rudder to midships. Once clear, into forward and pick up the rpm,wheel to port, until the head is positively moving going to port. As soon as the head starts going to port, ease back and proceed ahead.

 

[Dockhead]

I indicated my approach in my first post.
I admire these heroic suggestions but I'm for the low risk option.
IMHO, the risk, admittedly fairly slight, with a slip line in the hands of a complete novice, however well briefed, is that it won't. If it doesn't, then there's no fall-back manoeuvre available.
That's a recipe for an embarrassing conversation with the owner of the adjacent boat.
One or, better, two helpers on the pontoon, holding shrouds and/or a short rope from the bow should be quite capable of easily and safely guiding the boat astern until the bow is adequately clear. The boat crew can be deployed with roving fenders, deck brushes etc.etc.
If no-one's nearby, I'm sure any marina would happily provide a berthing hand to assist a weak crew in a difficult situation.

Ah, I see.

But one even quite strapping person couldn't hold the bow of my boat in a 20 knot cross-wind, so that option did not compute for me until you explained it. Maybe two or three could. I am not sure a 36' Bav with its considerable windage would be much easier. You risk people going into the drink using their bodies that way too. And there is no more any backup if this fails, than in the case of slips (other than the roving fender, applicable in both cases).

Matter of taste I guess but I don't much like using human bodies to get boats out of berths. Using a slip line is such fundamental and essential technique that I just wouldn't want to be without it. Any crew action is subject to being fouled up with rookie crew, and I don't know why slipping a line is any riskier than anything else. Just needs an adequate amount of patient instruction (and for the crewman to be not a complete idiot). I practically never leave a berth without some kind of line or another being slipped, and I almost never have experienced crew. So for me this is an everyday experience. Others may have different feelings about it.

Good idea however about asking the marina for help. I would certainly not be too proud to ask for it, where topsides are at risk, like this case.

 

[Dockhead]

With a 36ft Bav and port kick, I'd do the :

Rig slip on bow, have some one holding shortish free end and ensure no knots or kinks. Hold tight in, stern held tight in with loop over cleat. Engine running rudder centre.

Flick loop off stern yell at bow guy to release , go full astern for half a boat length ease throttle and then turn stern into wind to reverse out. Easy Peasy.

Hesitation is fatal, use the throttle almost as on off switch and you'll be fine. Its easy to get into a pickle by underthrottling. Using prop kick in reverse and the kick of wash off the rudder in forward are key to close quarters handling of an AWB IMHO.

You've got several things going for you in this situation.
1)Port kick. Very useful to get boat turning to port before the water flow is effective over the rudder, however centre rudder initially to max speed and not over egg the turn.
2)Stern boring. Boat's stern will naturally seek the wind, use it.

I would'nt piddle about with warps etc at that wind speed

You are a much braver skipper than I am! Wow! Full astern in a tight close quarters situation! I would never, ever attempt this without a thruster (and then certainly not with full astern), especially not turning the stern into the wind.

Remember that the kick to port will only act before you've water flowing over the rudder. As you put on way in astern, this effect will usefully hold the stern to the finger. Once you've got way on and have steering authority, you should have no trouble getting the stern to come around to starboard, putting the bow, not the stern into the wind by putting the helm to starboard, which will lessen, instead of exacerbating the tendency of the bow to smash into the boat next to you.

 

[jimi]

You are a much braver skipper than I am! Wow! Full astern in a tight close quarters situation! I would never, ever attempt this without a thruster (and then certainly not with full astern), especially not turning the stern into the wind.

Remember that the kick to port will only act before you've water flowing over the rudder. As you put on way in astern, this effect will usefully hold the stern to the finger. Once you've got way on and have steering authority, you should have no trouble getting the stern to come around to starboard, putting the bow, not the stern into the wind by putting the helm to starboard, which will lessen, instead of exacerbating the tendency of the bow to smash into the boat next to you.

I'll remember your advice the next time I manouvre my 34ft AWB with port kick that I've handled in exactly that way for the last 10 years without whacking anything .. ... but I'll probably will continue to do what works for me... and if you think its easier to put the bow rather than the sterrn into the wind when you clearly drive quite different boats to me!

 

[Dockhead]

Wow, thanks guys. Lots to think on there.
It seems there is no definitive answer. If I'm in that situation again I think I'll try warping the boat along the finger and then reversing out, letting the bow blow off such as Sgeir and others mentionned.

What I actually did was warp her along, get the crew on board and then had a slip from the bow, hanging the boat from the bow off the end of the finger. I hoped that I would then be able to drive the bow through the wind. The port kick didn't help that in practice which is why I needed 'feet fenders' to avoid my neighbours bow.
Every time I went astern to try and get more room the stern kicked more to port and there then wasn't enough room to drive the bow through and escape.
Stern out would defintely have been a better option.

many thanks again for all your replies.
Here's to the next marina visit (buttocks firmly clenched).

Great question!

Nothing, but nothing causes me as much anxiety as this kind of situation. I would rather be in three different Force 10 gales at sea, and then pilot my way through five unfamiliar ports at night, than do this one time.

I had a few cases like the one described this summer. Nothing smashed or scratched, thank God. I managed the departures ok, usually warping off in one way or another.

The situations which did not go as elegantly were getting onto pontoons or walls with the wind blowing us off, especially in a strong wind (30+). Need to work on that one. I had that a few times and seemed to have better luck backing in towards the pontoon and then swinging the bow in at the last moment. The most embarrassing moment of all happened in the marina at Torquay (the municipal port was full) in what should have been an easy pontoon berth. A 30+ gust caught us and blew the stern right off the finger. I almost overran the end of the finger trying to get the stern to come back in. Thank God a helpful neighbor came running over and my inexperienced crewman managed to throw him a stern line, and nothing was smashed or scratched. I looked like an idiot, however.

Sorry for the thread drift!

 

[Dockhead]

I'll remember your advice the next time I manouvre my 34ft AWB with port kick that I've handled in exactly that way for the last 10 years without whacking anything .. ... but I'll probably will continue to do what works for me... and if you think its easier to put the bow rather than the sterrn into the wind when you clearly drive quite different boats to me!

Well I was specifically not giving you any advice. I was admiring your courage and skill! Different things!

 

[johnalison]

Ah, I see.

But one even quite strapping person couldn't hold the bow of my boat in a 20 knot cross-wind, .

Of course they could. All it takes is half a turn round a cleat or through a ring.

 

[jimi]

Dockhead, judging by your post above, if I were you I'd be looking for advice on close quarters boat handling rather than giving it. Your advice about trying to get the bow through the wind is actually the worst bit of advice you could give. I am neither brave or partic skilled, I just have taken trouble to learn the basic tools and conditions in which they are applicable. If you are not comfortable handling in close quarters may I recommend that you take a days boathandling course. It will undoubtely improve your quality of life.

 

[Dockhead]

Of course they could. All it takes is half a turn round a cleat or through a ring.

Indeed, and that's exactly what was suggested in the first place -- a slip line. I think the poster suggesting holding on to shrouds and/or a short line from the bow, and guiding the boat out, was suggesting that this would be better than and different from a slip line.

 

[Dockhead]

Dockhead, judging by your post above, if I were you I'd be looking for advice on close quarters boat handling rather than giving it. Your advice about trying to get the bow through the wind is actually the worst bit of advice you could give. I am neither brave or partic skilled, I just have taken trouble to learn the basic tools and conditions in which they are applicable. If you are not comfortable handling in close quarters may I recommend that you take a days boathandling course. It will undoubtely improve your quality of life.

I am asking for advice, and I am very happy to have criticism to my ideas.

I have explained why I would try to put the bow, rather than the stern through the wind, and specifically asked whether anyone thought I was missing something. If you think it is a bad idea, I would be grateful for your specific criticism of it.

I have a few decades experience berthing and unberthing sailing vessels of various types and have had (and given) quite a bit of instruction over the years. I have had the great good fortune to have never smashed anything (that's more luck than skill, however). It is really difficult to control a heavy vessel in tight quarters in a cross wind and I am constantly trying to learn something new, which is why these discussions are so interesting. I admire your confidence but I don't have it.

I have been relearning all of this with particular intensity since I bought a 54 foot 24 tonne vessel a little over a year ago and started sailing her in your windy, tidey and very challenging waters here, after decades of sailing smaller vessels ranging from 15 foot dinghys to 45 foot Benes and Salonas in the Med and the U.S.

Again, I would be very grateful if you would argue with me, on the points you don't agree with. That was exactly why I posted my ideas.

 

[jimi]

I am asking for advice, and I am very happy to have criticism to my ideas.

I have explained why I would try to put the bow, rather than the stern through the wind, and specifically asked whether anyone thought I was missing something. If you think it is a bad idea, I would be grateful for your advice about it.

I have a few decades experience berthing and unberthing sailing vessels of various types and have had quite a bit of instruction over the years. I have had the great good fortune to have never smashed anything (that's more luck than skill, however). It is really difficult to control a heavy vessel in tight quarters in a cross wind and I am constantly trying to learn something new, which is why these discussions are so interesting. I admire your confidence but I don't have it.

Again, I would be very grateful if you would argue with me, on the points you don't agree with. That was exactly why I posted my ideas.

OK lets start at the beginning:

Have you ever heard of stern boring?

 

[Dockhead]

OK lets start at the beginning:

Have you ever heard of stern boring?

Never heard the term, and quick google on it points only to your posts in this thread. But I presume you're talking about the fact that the bows of most boats will blow off more easily than the stern? Causing them to weather-cock around stern into the wind, right?

That's the very effect I would be afraid of since it would spin the bows into the boat to starboard unless you were well clear -- or so I would suppose. Not so?

 

[CFarr]

Great advice from all thanks.
Can I offer some of my own.
I think we should all just pick out what we think is good advice and ponder it, offer our own solutions if we have any and not start on each other, don't you?

 

[jimi]

CFarr, Dockhead's advice is actually dangerous. Stern boring is a well understood and used term. If D has never heard of it, then that speaks volumes.