leaving marina berth - help please

[CFarr]

As a new member I am willingly laying myself open to ridicule for what I assume is 'run of the mill' for most of you guys, namely, exiting a marina berth.

I have improved with the last two trips I've done but I did come upon a situation that drained the blood from my visible areas.

I had entered a marina to give the crew a bit of respite from a long beat in 6 to 7 to have a spot of lunch before returning to home port.
the marina was rammed and after some trouble I managed to get the boat into a finger berth.
The bow had been blowing off when I tried to put it through the wind (Bavaria 36) and the stern kicked to port when going in reverse (violently when the wind was on the port side).
I will try and attach an image of the situation here:
My question is:
How should I have executed the exit?
I did manage to get out without hitting anything (care of crews feet) but it wasn't pretty.
bare in mind I only had two very long warps (which doubled as springs) and three small fenders, usual charter boat supplement I've found.

 

[starfire]

Simple option, back all the way out of the marina.

 

[CFarr]

Thanks Starfire but, how do I easily stop the bow blowing onto the adjacent boat and keep the stern from blowing off until I have sufficient way on for the rudder to bite?
Forgot to mention - really novice crew!
Cheers

 

[earlybird]

Simple option, back all the way out of the marina.

I don't think that's the real problem.
Someone on the finger berth, somehow holding the bow from blowing off is helpful. Don't be embarrassed to ask.
The owner of the adjacent boat would be incentivised to perform this task!
Don't go astern too slowly.
Feet aren't really recommended as fenders.
Add:- if you've got an inflatable, put that in the way

 

[DJE]

Crew on pontoon holding boat when warps are released. Put engine astern and crew walk back along pontoon and board at last possible moment by which time you should be going astern fairly quickly. No need for rudder; wind will blow bow down and propwalk may assist in getting stern up to windward. Once clear of adjacent boat take way off if you like and wait for bow to blow downwind. Motoring astern with wind on stern should be a doddle as bow will weathercock downwind by itself.

Motoring astern with wind on the bow is another matter and best avoided if possible.

 

[Jenaline IV]

Use one crew member to control the bow mooring line slip which should have been moved to just forward of midships prior to departure. The rest of the crew fend/push off the sb side while you motor back, giving it the beans if necessary. The stern kicking to port and the bowline will help keep the boat off your neighbour

 

[nimbusgb]

Fenders out to stbd! A roving one about 3m back from the bow with someone ready to move it to the choicest of spots. May just be easier just to have the bow crew hold the bow off the boat downwind with a soft/plastic ended boathook ( on the toerail not the lifelines or topsides.) in which case you could get out fairly slowly.

 

[CFarr]

Hmmm, stuff to think on there. I wasn't sure about leaving crew on the pontoon in case anything went wrong and they 'missed the boat'. Wouldn't have been easy to pick them back up.
Nobody thinks hanging the bow of the pontoon end is a good idea then?

 

[Sgeir]

We have a lot of prop walk, also to port, so each exit from a finger berth has to be carefully planned if there's a breeze or a current. A lot depends on the profile of the boat and how she reacts to wind, tide, and propwalk.

Move the warps first of all is my advice. If there is a middle cleat on the finger pontoon, take the bow to that position, and run a warp from the boat's middle cleat (or round the shrouds if there's no middle cleat) to the one on the end of the finger berth. The stern cleat has no real function now (unless you wanted to use her as a spring which seems unlikely), so free it up. You still have two warps, but you're ten feet or more towards making a safe exit. Either or both warps can be gradually released as you go astern, as appropriate to the conditions. We usually do this with two on board, but is normally manageable singlehanded.

Also, well placed fenders on the sytarboard side take away some worries. ;-)

 

[fireball]

I'm suprised with the Stern to Port prop walk - my Bav is a stern to Starboard .. and they'd have practically the same engine & saildrive ....

With 20 knots blowing you off the pontoon you definately want your fenders on the other side.
I would undo one of the genoa sheets as well - so you had an extra line ... this could be slipped around the last pontoon cleat and used to hold the nose in whilst you reverse out.
Holding the nose in - the stern will swing to starboard - the trick would be to get far enough back to enable you to swing the stern back round and push the nose into the fairway.

On handing the boat back to the charterer I would complain at 3 fenders and 2 lines - that is stupidity on a boat of that size. We have the same size hull and have 9 fenders (we found one - so it was just 8) and 3 long dedicated mooring lines with 2 shorter ones for when we are tied up.

 

[duncan]

Use one crew member to control the bow mooring line slip which should have been moved to just forward of midships prior to departure. The rest of the crew fend/push off the sb side while you motor back, giving it the beans if necessary. The stern kicking to port and the bowline will help keep the boat off your neighbour

yep this is the slow speed, full control approach. port walk and wind all work for you this way.

explain it all to everyone before starting, and put the fenders to the STB side as well. take all the appropriate precautions to avoid the bow line tail snagging BUT agree and explain what your approach will be should it happen - before it happens!

whilst there is some apparent attraction to handling the bow from the pontoon, this approach is definitely not appropriate - if things go wrong people can get hurt; best take the approach where pride and gelcoat are the at risk elements.

 

[Dockhead]

As a new member I am willingly laying myself open to ridicule for what I assume is 'run of the mill' for most of you guys, namely, exiting a marina berth.

I have improved with the last two trips I've done but I did come upon a situation that drained the blood from my visible areas.

I had entered a marina to give the crew a bit of respite from a long beat in 6 to 7 to have a spot of lunch before returning to home port.
the marina was rammed and after some trouble I managed to get the boat into a finger berth.
The bow had been blowing off when I tried to put it through the wind (Bavaria 36) and the stern kicked to port when going in reverse (violently when the wind was on the port side).
I will try and attach an image of the situation here:
My question is:
How should I have executed the exit?
I did manage to get out without hitting anything (care of crews feet) but it wasn't pretty.
bare in mind I only had two very long warps (which doubled as springs) and three small fenders, usual charter boat supplement I've found.

If you got out without hitting anything you are a hero. "Pretty" is not the main thing. That looks like a nightmare of a situation to me. I would be quite scared myself, even though I have actually been in that situation a few times.

On our boat I might just try neutral helm, a good burst astern, and port bow thruster. With a guy with a roving fender to starboard in case something blows off. Our boat kicks a little to port in astern and that would help keep the stern from blowing off. Port thruster will not only keep the bow from blowing off but will keep the boat moving straight out of the berth.

Without a thruster I would not try it without warps. Although on such a light boat as that Bav, you might get away with having someone on the dock hold onto the lifelines and walk back along the finger with you.

Warping would be tricky, too. I guess you would want a line from the bow which a crewman would pay out as you leave the berth, holding the bow to the finger. I don't agree that this line should be midships; it should be at least slightly ahead of midships to apply the necessary force to keep the bows from blowing off. If it's right midships you can get the stern swivelling into the finger where you won't get out, and you might damage something. Maintaining some thrust astern, keeping some force on that line, will help hold the boat alongside. The behaviour of the stern will be somewhat unpredictable, however, but the port kick astern will help there; plus you might get some helm authority through propeller wash. But there would be a significant risk of the stern blowing off so you'll want the roving fender over there.

Once you're clear of the finger I wouldn't think it would be so hard anymore, depending on how tight the runs between the pontoons are. You could put the helm over to starboard with a burst astern to spin the boat around, then a burst ahead, and put the helm back over when you stop your way astern. Then simply motor ahead out of the marina. As long as you are going astern you will have little control, but you only need to get the bow well clear of the finger and then you can then start motoring ahead, where, against the wind, you should have good steering authority.

P.S. You complain about having only two long lines -- how many do you need? I would only want one for that maneuver. I would rig a short slip line exactly amidships to hold the boat temporarily while the springs are being taken off. A long line on a slip forward. Then I would have the crew throw off the stern line just as I started the maneuver.

 

[earlybird]

With, ( quote ) "a really novice crew" and 20 knts, I don't think a solution involving slipping lines is a very good idea.

 

[Dockhead]

With, ( quote ) "a really novice crew" and 20 knts, I don't think a solution involving slipping lines is a very good idea.

I don't have any solutions that don't involve slipping lines, in close quarters and wind blowing. Maybe my experience is not adequate -- pray tell how you would do it?

 

[webcraft]

With, ( quote ) "a really novice crew" and 20 knts, I don't think a solution involving slipping lines is a very good idea.

Why not? I left a marina berth in 30 knots in almost identical conditions with a novice crew a couple of weeks ago without any problem. Just take your time explaining what it is exactly you want them to do and check that they have a short end ready to slip with no knots, fankles etc. Preparation and communication are the keys.

The key is to keep the boat parallel to the pontoon for as long as possible using the mooring lines, but don't leave crew on the pontoon. Organise slip lines as described by Sgeir and others in such a way that the (onboard) crew can use the lines to keep the boat paralell to the pontoon for as long as possible as you reverse.

Once you slip completely the stern will swing fairly rapidly into the wind and you can motor clear directly upwind (AFAICS from your diagram that is). Have a 'roving fender' at the bow in case it still swings too early and grazes the opposite boat. Feet should not be an option iof you want people to keep them!

- W

 

[Poignard]

Agree with what Webcraft says about avoiding 'fankles' (new word to me but one I'll remember.

My last but one departure from a marina in a cross wind was 'not attended with that success for which I might have hoped' (i.e. it was a complete and hideously embarrassing shambles! ).

All due to a 'fankle' and entirely my fault for not ensuring a line was free to run clear - all because I was in a hurry to get home.

 

[alant]

Properly briefed crew.

As a new member I am willingly laying myself open to ridicule for what I assume is 'run of the mill' for most of you guys, namely, exiting a marina berth.

I have improved with the last two trips I've done but I did come upon a situation that drained the blood from my visible areas.

I had entered a marina to give the crew a bit of respite from a long beat in 6 to 7 to have a spot of lunch before returning to home port.
the marina was rammed and after some trouble I managed to get the boat into a finger berth.
The bow had been blowing off when I tried to put it through the wind (Bavaria 36) and the stern kicked to port when going in reverse (violently when the wind was on the port side).
I will try and attach an image of the situation here:
My question is:
How should I have executed the exit?
I did manage to get out without hitting anything (care of crews feet) but it wasn't pretty.
bare in mind I only had two very long warps (which doubled as springs) and three small fenders, usual charter boat supplement I've found.

Dependant upon (1) how much room behind (2) how much room to windward when you emerge, try this -
(1) single up bow & stern lines (short ones, ready to slip.
(2) Put engine astern & raise revs well above tickover, so that 'it' is straining at the leash.
(3) Release stern line first, followed fairly quickly by bow line.
(4) As soon as boat 'pops' out of berth, engine in neutral. controlling only to allow wind to push bows downwwind, then as has been said previously, astern out of marina making sure the bow doesn't weathercock too close to anything to your starboard.

I have used this method successfully in 46knts wind pushing onto my port side, with propwalk to port. Well I wasn't on the helm, it was a pupil on a D/Skipper course.

Again as has been mentioned previously, even with novice crew, give each a task & brief them thoroughly beforehand, fenders to stbd with a rover. Make sure as part of the brief, they must tell you when the lines are slipped, clear & onboard.

 

[lw395]

I would do something similar to sgeir to get back from the finger, then reverse out, letting the bow blow round.
It looks as if you should be able to turn in a largish arc to end up below the bottom boat in the picture, then motor astern far enough to be able to stop and go forwards.

Fending boats manually in 20kts is fraught.
The bow is going to blow around, so let it do that, and run with it rather than fight it until you have way on.

It is a sod having to try this before having got to know the boat. If it does not respond as per plan you have to go with plan B. You have to know whether you will get steerage way astern, before you run out of space. Reversing dead into the wind is least demanding in terms of steerage way in reverse. But if something makes you slow down, it will fall apart quickly as the wind will be blowing you forwards, you want to go boldly forwards, with plenty of starboard helm.

 

[westernman]

In my boat, in those conditions the bows blow off quickly so simply casting off and reversing out is not an option. Legs are also not strong enough to fend off a 52 ft, 34 ton gaffer against 20 knots of wind.

So I would loop a bow line around a cleat on the pontoon.
You have several choices:-

1) to the bow end of the pontoon. In which case you need to reverse out fairly quickly (before the stern has a chance to blow too far downwind, but you have the prop kicking the stern to port help you) with a crew member paying out the warp (which needs to doubled back to the boat and jsut looped around the cleat on the pontoon). Make sure that the warp has no chance to get blocked or caught on anything. Also best if the warp is not too elastic. If you need to go up wind once out of the berth, then probably in these conditions you can let the stern swing down wind a fair way as you come out.

2) Attach the bow line to the stern end of the pontoon. I prefer this one. In this case the ideal is to attach the line of a winch, and to motor forward against the bow line using the prop wash to keep the stern aligned. A crew member then winches the boat out of the berth a little bit at a time. Alternatively you can back out until the bows are getting dangerously close to your neighbour, the crew member quickly snatches in all the slack, takes a turn around a cleat and you motor forward against the line to put the bows back upwind. This will probably work fine in 20knots. In 30 knots you will probably be winching.
Little by little you will get the boat out of the berth under control. This is the technique we use most often when we have to.

3) You can also attach a stern line, and the bowline at the end of the pontoon. Then you winch on the bowline letting go gradually the stern line until you are about 2/3 the way out (where the stern line will no longer be able to hold the stern up wind reliably) where you then revert to method 2 for the last bit (if really needed).

You did not say which way you needed to go once out of the berth. The difficult direction is up wind. In this case you need to cast off the bow while still moving backwards and with the stern down wind. It will blow down wind once you let off the stern line. You hang on to the bow line to keep the bows up wind. This works best when the bow line is attached to the end of the pontoon. The coordination comes in letting out and then letting go of the bow line when going back wards such that you are clear of your neighbour's back side.

Try to arrange it such that you cast of the bow with the wind just a little on the starboard side of the bow. Then you can easily apply full power, using the prop wash to push the stern to the right place as the boat starts to gain stearage way going forward and you won't get blown onto your neighbour on the other side.

If going down wind, you just let the wind blow the bows around until you are pointing in the right direction, and then give it some welly until you have stearage way.

We very often use a similiar method to (2) when reversing backwards into our berth with a strong cross wind. (Most times when we come back in). In this case we often turn the boat almost head to wind at the beginning of the fairway and then go slowly side ways down the fairway before slipping the bow line (standing on the stern), over the post at the upwind end of the berth. This fascinates the spectators.....

 

[johnalison]

I might add that I would also go astern as fast as comfortable, but make no attempt at that stage to turn the stern into the wind. When the boat is well out into the alley, however small, it will be easy to stop the boat with a short burst ahead. The wind can then be allowed to blow the bows off and astern can be engaged at a time when you judge that the prop-walk and the wind will result in your boat being aligned in the right direction to exit the alley.

With a novice crew it might well be safer, in the absence of a helper ashore, to leave someone ashore and pick him or her up from a better berth - maybe the fuel pontoon.