Leagl help needed regarding mooring rights.

[Tomahawk]

A friend of mine needs some help regards his mooring rights.

Long story short, he owns a riverside property which has mooring rights. But recent inspection of title deeds etc seems to show the mooring rights are no longer mentioned.. He is anxious to re-establish his rights and needs a lawyer who has specialised knlowledge in such matters.

Has anyone got any recommendations?

 

[Seven Spades]

Are you saying that he has paper copies of his title deeds show the mooring rights and that the land registries copies do not?

 

[Tomahawk]

Are you saying that he has paper copies of his title deeds show the mooring rights and that the land registries copies do not?

Don’t know the details..

 

[guernseyman]

Don’t know the details..

Find out.

 

[Bru]

Find out.

:encouragement:

Questions …

1. On what basis does he think he has mooring rights?

2. Does he have riparian rights (i.e. does he own the river bed to the centre of the river)?

3. Does he own the river bank right to the waters edge or is there a ransom strip?

4. Which river!? (This matters considerably as the legal situation greatly depends on the legal status of the river)

To speculate on the answers … assuming he owns the land to the water's edge and there is no ransom strip he can almost certainly moor a boat with impunity (as far as mooring fees are concerned) whether or not there documentary proof of any "right" to do so. However, this does not mean he can carry put works on the river bank (piling etc.) or in the river bed (piling etc) to create a mooring. For those he would inevitably need the permission of one or more agencies (e.g. MMO or Natural England, River Authority / Navigation Authority etc.)

 

[Resolution]

He is anxious to re-establish his rights and needs a lawyer who has specialised knowledge in such matters.

Has anyone got any recommendations?

I don't think Tomahawk wants our well-meaning but possibly useless advice on the mooring rights. What he actually requested was recommendations for a specialist lawyer.
Peter

 

[Bru]

I don't think Tomahawk wants our well-meaning but possibly useless advice on the mooring rights. What he actually requested was recommendations for a specialist lawyer.
Peter

Difficult to recommend a specialist lawyer without more facts. And I happen to know a considerable amount about such issues having spent many years involved in waterways politics at a high level (including dealing, along with others, with issues around landowner's mooring rights). So I can advise from a position of some knowledge. But only with the facts

 

[Tomahawk]

The property belongs to my nephews, partner (Matt’s), sponsor... if that makes any sense.

I was talking with Matt who happened to mention it in passing. It is in London. (Open a can of worms!) The owner is rather old and has not used the mooring, but realises these days the mooring is potentially worth auite a lot. I don’t know much more, but thought to ask on here for someone to point Matt towards.

 

[Graham376]

The property belongs to my nephews, partner (Matt’s), sponsor... if that makes any sense.

I was talking with Matt who happened to mention it in passing. It is in London. (Open a can of worms!) The owner is rather old and has not used the mooring, but realises these days the mooring is potentially worth auite a lot. I don’t know much more, but thought to ask on here for someone to point Matt towards.

RYA legal dept?

 

[Bru]

"In London" is a large can of worms!

PLA or EA waters? Recognised mooring site or ad hoc? etc.

There are various organisations and groups who may be able to help with advice, knowledge etc. but it depends very much on the nitty gritty details

If you'd rather not discuss details on an open forum, hop on board and I'll put the kettle on!!! (I'm probably not around this coming weekend though)

 

[Resolution]

Difficult to recommend a specialist lawyer without more facts. And I happen to know a considerable amount about such issues having spent many years involved in waterways politics at a high level (including dealing, along with others, with issues around landowner's mooring rights). So I can advise from a position of some knowledge. But only with the facts

Fair enough.

 

[Ellimac]

Fair enough.

Difficult to recommend a specialist lawyer without more facts. And I happen to know a considerable amount about such issues having spent many years involved in waterways politics at a high level (including dealing, along with others, with issues around landowner's mooring rights). So I can advise from a position of some knowledge. But only with the facts

I know its been a little while since this thread began, but Bru, could you recommend any legal experts regarding residential mooring issues? I know there have been failed attempts to get mooring tenants the same rights as land tenants, but the angle we have here is bullying by the landlord and substandard facilities. I'm looking to Waterway Omsbudsmans but any tips welcome. I'm willing to sink some cash into this as the guy is just getting worse and worse and he's definitely overstepping some boundaries here.

Thanking you

 

[Bru]

I know its been a little while since this thread began, but Bru, could you recommend any legal experts regarding residential mooring issues? I know there have been failed attempts to get mooring tenants the same rights as land tenants, but the angle we have here is bullying by the landlord and substandard facilities. I'm looking to Waterway Omsbudsmans but any tips welcome. I'm willing to sink some cash into this as the guy is just getting worse and worse and he's definitely overstepping some boundaries here.

Thanking you

Umm, this sounds like a totally different scenario to the original post ... i.e. we've moced from a question about mooring rights pertaining to ownership of riverside land to something vague to do with a landlord and substandard facilities

Two completely different scenarios

I have considerable past experience and knowledge of both subjects and have maintained a passing interest since I ceased to be involved in waterways politics and can therefore offer some potentially useful insight and advice on both topics with caveats - the primary one being that you might not like the answers!

As with the oriinal topic, I cannot begin to offer any specific advice or insight without considerably more information. I will happily respond here or to a PM but not without more info! And see primary caveat in the para above!!

With regard to lawyers etc., I would not offer any recommendations myself. I may be able to point in the right general direction of where to get such advice

 

[Ellimac]

Thanks! I'll try to figure out how to DM you... bear with

 

[Ellimac]

Umm, this sounds like a totally different scenario to the original post ... i.e. we've moced from a question about mooring rights pertaining to ownership of riverside land to something vague to do with a landlord and substandard facilities

Two completely different scenarios

I have considerable past experience and knowledge of both subjects and have maintained a passing interest since I ceased to be involved in waterways politics and can therefore offer some potentially useful insight and advice on both topics with caveats - the primary one being that you might not like the answers!

As with the oriinal topic, I cannot begin to offer any specific advice or insight without considerably more information. I will happily respond here or to a PM but not without more info! And see primary caveat in the para above!!

With regard to lawyers etc., I would not offer any recommendations myself. I may be able to point in the right general direction of where to get such advice

So.. i had no joy with the DM!

But a bit more info on my situ - we're residential mooring tenants and our main issues are being caught in between a landlord who intimidates tenants, creates rules that go beyond (ropes should be black, no using power tools, no music, no BBQs, forces us to maintain a shared garden that we have no rights in, comes in as he likes and inspects and photographs our boats, does not maintain the site - elsan point is out in the open, sidewalks cracking, door not secure, docks rotting, his father now wears a green arm band that reads WARDEN and goes about peering in boat windows!). We pay council tax and have been here for about a year and a half as our daughter is in school locally.

The other tenants are forced on monthly rolling contracts, we fought for a yearly, but the terms are one-sided and draconian.
It's all coming to a head as its summer and we can't actually live or be outside in our garden as the landlord has set up a coffee shop in a horsebox on the other side of our garden fence and is there every weekend with his family 'wardening'.

In short, from what i can see we need to find a side where our rights lie - either we are tenants as we have residential leases, or we are consumers as we are paying for something. either way, the landlord is taking advantage of market scarcity to enforce terms that are aggresive and not fair. some of the facilities (the rotting docks) are unsafe and under the consumer rights act liability cannot be avoided by forcing consumers to sign rights away. There is also the mental health angle. Many have sold their boats and moved on, my neighbours are older, one is retired, and we are one of two families with young children, and the tone of emails we're sent is inappropriate as is their 'if you don't like it leave' response to everything.

Any advice appreciated. Meanwhile i'm phoning organisations and lawyers trying to find where this fits. its been left dangling for too long.

 

[PlanB]

So.. i had no joy with the DM!

But a bit more info on my situ - we're residential mooring tenants and our main issues are being caught in between a landlord who intimidates tenants, creates rules that go beyond (ropes should be black, no using power tools, no music, no BBQs, forces us to maintain a shared garden that we have no rights in, comes in as he likes and inspects and photographs our boats, does not maintain the site - elsan point is out in the open, sidewalks cracking, door not secure, docks rotting, his father now wears a green arm band that reads WARDEN and goes about peering in boat windows!). We pay council tax and have been here for about a year and a half as our daughter is in school locally.

The other tenants are forced on monthly rolling contracts, we fought for a yearly, but the terms are one-sided and draconian.
It's all coming to a head as its summer and we can't actually live or be outside in our garden as the landlord has set up a coffee shop in a horsebox on the other side of our garden fence and is there every weekend with his family 'wardening'.

In short, from what i can see we need to find a side where our rights lie - either we are tenants as we have residential leases, or we are consumers as we are paying for something. either way, the landlord is taking advantage of market scarcity to enforce terms that are aggresive and not fair. some of the facilities (the rotting docks) are unsafe and under the consumer rights act liability cannot be avoided by forcing consumers to sign rights away. There is also the mental health angle. Many have sold their boats and moved on, my neighbours are older, one is retired, and we are one of two families with young children, and the tone of emails we're sent is inappropriate as is their 'if you don't like it leave' response to everything.

Any advice appreciated. Meanwhile i'm phoning organisations and lawyers trying to find where this fits. its been left dangling for too long.

Have you tried these people?
RBOA | Residential Boat Owners’ Association

 

[Bru]

I'm confused as some of the terminology ("sidewalk", "dock") suggests the USA whilst other terms ("council tax", "garden") suggest the UK???

So where are we talking about????

 

[Ellimac]

Have you tried these people?
RBOA | Residential Boat Owners’ Association

My neighbour tried, and they told her to 'keep her head down'. I"ve just tried again with an email just in case!

 

[savageseadog]

So.. i had no joy with the DM!

But a bit more info on my situ - we're residential mooring tenants and our main issues are being caught in between a landlord who intimidates tenants, creates rules that go beyond (ropes should be black, no using power tools, no music, no BBQs, forces us to maintain a shared garden that we have no rights in, comes in as he likes and inspects and photographs our boats, does not maintain the site - elsan point is out in the open, sidewalks cracking, door not secure, docks rotting, his father now wears a green arm band that reads WARDEN and goes about peering in boat windows!). We pay council tax and have been here for about a year and a half as our daughter is in school locally.

The other tenants are forced on monthly rolling contracts, we fought for a yearly, but the terms are one-sided and draconian.
It's all coming to a head as its summer and we can't actually live or be outside in our garden as the landlord has set up a coffee shop in a horsebox on the other side of our garden fence and is there every weekend with his family 'wardening'.

In short, from what i can see we need to find a side where our rights lie - either we are tenants as we have residential leases, or we are consumers as we are paying for something. either way, the landlord is taking advantage of market scarcity to enforce terms that are aggresive and not fair. some of the facilities (the rotting docks) are unsafe and under the consumer rights act liability cannot be avoided by forcing consumers to sign rights away. There is also the mental health angle. Many have sold their boats and moved on, my neighbours are older, one is retired, and we are one of two families with young children, and the tone of emails we're sent is inappropriate as is their 'if you don't like it leave' response to everything.

Any advice appreciated. Meanwhile i'm phoning organisations and lawyers trying to find where this fits. its been left dangling for too long.

The "warden" sounds like someone I know, does his Christian name begin with Je.....?

 

[Ellimac]

I'm confused as some of the terminology ("sidewalk", "dock") suggests the USA whilst other terms ("council tax", "garden") suggest the UK???

So where are we talking about????

UK! Sorry.. good spot though.. I am American by birth, it still creeps into my vocab