Latitude and Longitude - no more?

[dunedin]

Yesterday I suddenly reflected that I had no idea of the Lat/Long numbers for where I was. Nor indeed of where I had started from. Or any of the the locations on my voyages this year. I happen to know the Lattitude of my home town - so could guess we were high 50’s N and a fair bit W. But that was it.

It wasn’t that I couldn’t find out that information. It is permanently displayed along the top of both chart plotters on board. And any of 6-7 other devices on board could tell me this. But though I refer to a lot of data on the plotter screens - TWS, TWA, Speed, SOG, COG, VMG, BTW, DTW etc, I had never noted the actual Lat/Long number.
And it wasn’t for lack of attention to navigation. I had started the day extracting myself from a rocky anchorage that no Admiralty (or Navionics) chart had details of, using Antares superb charts on iPad plus the CCC equally superb sailing directions, but pure pilotage.
After a costal passage I had then tacked upwind, needing to go outside the narrow channel avoiding many charted but unmarked hidden rocks.
In doing so again used plenty of charts for safe navigation - both plotters with vector charts, plus UKHO paper and electronic raster charts on two devices (as isolated pinnacle rocks can be tricky to spot using just Navionics). I don’t generally plot track or positions on the paper charts - unless mid ocean for morale purposes.
But at no time did I need to refer to Lat or Long. And I keep a paper “day log”, but this records location by time passing headlands, islands or even occasional navigation marks.

The last two times I can recall actually referring to Lat / Long were both over 2 years and 4,000 miles ago….
- when out of sight of land (heading out to St Kilda in slight mist) I recorded hourly Lat/Long - as much as anything to avoid boredom; and
- when responding to a mayday call and asking HMC for the casualty’s position to enter a Go-To waypoint - this incident emphasised the uselessness of HMC calling Mayday messages using only Lat/Long position. With no pen or paper at the helm these cannot be noted when first announced. It was only because I realised I could hear the casualty, a kayaker on handheld VHF, that I realised it must be nearby (3 other commercial vessels sailed on by ignoring the mayday relay).

So I guess the answer will depend very much on your sailing location (eg how much out of sight of land) and your heritage, but do you still use Lat/Long on regular basis?

 

[alan_d]

Yesterday I suddenly reflected that I had no idea of the Lat/Long numbers for where I was. Nor indeed of where I had started from. Or any of the the locations on my voyages this year. I happen to know the Lattitude of my home town - so could guess we were high 50’s N and a fair bit W. But that was it.

It wasn’t that I couldn’t find out that information. It is permanently displayed along the top of both chart plotters on board. And any of 6-7 other devices on board could tell me this. But though I refer to a lot of data on the plotter screens - TWS, TWA, Speed, SOG, COG, VMG, BTW, DTW etc, I had never noted the actual Lat/Long number.
And it wasn’t for lack of attention to navigation. I had started the day extracting myself from a rocky anchorage that no Admiralty (or Navionics) chart had details of, using Antares superb charts on iPad plus the CCC equally superb sailing directions, but pure pilotage.
After a costal passage I had then tacked upwind, needing to go outside the narrow channel avoiding many charted but unmarked hidden rocks.
In doing so again used plenty of charts for safe navigation - both plotters with vector charts, plus UKHO paper and electronic raster charts on two devices (as isolated pinnacle rocks can be tricky to spot using just Navionics). I don’t generally plot track or positions on the paper charts - unless mid ocean for morale purposes.
But at no time did I need to refer to Lat or Long. And I keep a paper “day log”, but this records location by time passing headlands, islands or even occasional navigation marks.

The last two times I can recall actually referring to Lat / Long were both over 2 years and 4,000 miles ago….
- when out of sight of land (heading out to St Kilda in slight mist) I recorded hourly Lat/Long - as much as anything to avoid boredom; and
- when responding to a mayday call and asking HMC for the casualty’s position to enter a Go-To waypoint - this incident emphasised the uselessness of HMC calling Mayday messages using only Lat/Long position. With no pen or paper at the helm these cannot be noted when first announced. It was only because I realised I could hear the casualty, a kayaker on handheld VHF, that I realised it must be nearby (3 other commercial vessels sailed on by ignoring the mayday relay).

So I guess the answer will depend very much on your sailing location (eg how much out of sight of land) and your heritage, but do you still use Lat/Long on regular basis?

On passage I still make an hourly entry of position in the log, usually lat/long but in pilotage waters sometimes by reference to a fixed feature.

 

[Boathook]

On passage I still make an hourly entry of position in the log, usually lat/long but in pilotage waters sometimes by reference to a fixed feature.

My log for local voyages normally gives where I started from and ended up at plus distances traveled, etc

 

[Tranona]

Had a real life experience of this dilemma a couple of years ago when I picked up a pot line just outside Poole harbour. Lovely sunny Saturday afternoon with light winds so no big drama. Coastguard required Lat and Long although I was ready to give a bearing from a major nearby navigation mark which is one of my waypoints. Took me by surprise as I know the RNLI will be using bearings and visual. I also learned that should a chopper be required they would be working to OS grid reference!

Since GPS came along I have always though that where you are in relation to a known fixed point (or more than one) is more important than an artificial point on map/chart.

 

[Boathook]

@Tranona a few years back the CG seemed to give incidents only by lat and long. A complete waste on me as I knew where I was by 'headland' and I get the impression that this applied to the majority of local boats. They now seemed to have reverted to including a headland and distance off which are the key items for me when I listen to the VHF.

 

[LittleSister]

- this incident emphasised the uselessness of HMC calling Mayday messages using only Lat/Long position. With no pen or paper at the helm these cannot be noted when first announced.

I agree. I rarely use LatLong, so typically miss out on knowing where the Coastguard is referring to. I’d much prefer it if they also gave a general location, but I imagine the chances of them ever doing so is now vanishing.

I sometimes try to catch the lat/long numbers and keep reciting them while I get out a chart, usually to find whatever was happening is doing so 100 miles away.

 

[LittleSister]

@Tranona a few years back the CG seemed to give incidents only by lat and long. A complete waste on me as I knew where I was by 'headland' and I get the impression that this applied to the majority of local boats. They now seemed to have reverted to including a headland and distance off which are the key items for me when I listen to the VHF.

I am surprised and pleased if that is the case.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

On passage I still make an hourly entry of position in the log, usually lat/long but in pilotage waters sometimes by reference to a fixed feature.

As do I. Sometimes I enter a Lat -Long position from GPS, sometimes one derived from a Three-Point Fix and sometimes a Bearing and Distance -Off from a Charted Object. That's what I was trained to do.
Keeping a log with observations of where one has departed from and where one has arrived, and perhaps how many dolphins or seals were seen, may be a satisfying pastime, but the primary purpose of regular and frequent log entries is to aid the calculation of one's position, in the absence of working electronics, should there be a sudden deterioration of visibility or some other occurrence where sighting of charted landmarks becomes impossible.

 

[Laser310]

I am mostly racing - i don't keep a paper log.

My nav software logs everything - every second.

One thing I always do is have one of the instrument displays near the fixed VHF always displaying lat/lon in very large digits - lat/lon might be the only data on that display. This is so nobody has to search around instrument or laptop displays looking for it if we need to make a maydau call - it's always right there

Something that I did for a while, when the laptop is doing the logging, was to write just lat/lon and time on a sticky note or a white board every 30 -60 min while i was awake- in case all the instruments went down. I haven't done it for a while - everyone has a phone with lat lon easily available.

When the racing marks are actual nav aids, rather than inflatable drop marks, they often give the coordinates in addition to the name and/or numeric designation. So, I always check that I am going to round the correct "2", for example.

It's not uncommon in ocean racing for a boat to issue a pan pan - maybe they lost their rig or something like that. I always plot their position, so that I know where they are, and whether we will be in a position to offer assistance if they desire it.

So, I find myself plotting positions pretty often.

 

[lustyd]

@Tranona a few years back the CG seemed to give incidents only by lat and long. A complete waste on me as I knew where I was by 'headland' and I get the impression that this applied to the majority of local boats. They now seemed to have reverted to including a headland and distance off which are the key items for me when I listen to the VHF.

The problem I find though is that they give the easy info after the hard. If they said Chichester Harbour entrance first I might pay attention to the lat and long but starting with coordinates it’s just noise because first I’d have to look up my coordinates to know if they’re close.

 

[jlavery]

Just to add to the mix, I've heard the CG tell a MAYDAY caller to download WhatThreeWords and give position from that.

Was a small powerboat with engine failure, no nav kit and no idea of where they were (or too panicked to think clearly).

 

[Martin_J]

The problem I find though is that they give the easy info after the hard. If they said Chichester Harbour entrance first I might pay attention to the lat and long but starting with coordinates it’s just noise because first I’d have to look up my coordinates to know if they’re close.

You beat me to it... I often pick up the chart covering a huge area and find the lat and long on the chart as it's read out.

The easy description then seems to follow.

If the easy description was given first, then it would instantly grab yours (and your crews) attention if it were anywhere near you.

It would save the effort each time of jumping for the chart (or pen/paper) only to then work out the problem is many miles away.

It feels like your waiting and waiting for each lat/long numeral to be read when in seconds they could have said 'just south of Nab Tower'

 

[Martin_J]

Back to the original question. When out of the Solent, we ensure to have a display that will be set to show lat/long all the time.

This does then get noted in the paper log every hour together with weather, wind, boat speed/direction and a brief description of what headland we're near etc... This is also plotted on the paper charts.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Three miles SW of Dubh Sgier would be problematic in Scotland.

I tend to keep a mental note of my Lat and Long and use that to gauge distances roughly. I travel a lot and it interests me to compare Lat and Long with my home, so familiarity is not entirely lost to me. I do agree with the OP that it is rarely used in navigation. The majority of navigation is pilotage anyway and being able to point / know where you are on a chart, in a dynamic pilotage scenario rarely involves plotting a Lat / Long, in my experience.

I ceratinly agree with Mayday in coastal scenarios is far better given as bearing from and range to a distress position.

 

[mjcoon]

...

Since GPS came along I have always though that where you are in relation to a known fixed point (or more than one) is more important than an artificial point on map/chart.

Did you mean that? I would have thought 'twas the other way around...

 

[Concerto]

I no longer keep a paper record of my journeys. Instead I photograph the chart plotter as this shows the Latitude and Longitude, the boat speed through the water and direction. It takes so little time and accurately records the important information. If you have linked instruments also displaying wind and depth, then even more information than you would record in a paper log. For conditions you can add a photograph or short video. Technology now supercedes many of the old navigation methods, it just needs a change of attitude to realise the advantages. When singlehanded this can speed up the record of the voyage and leave you with a wonderful personal record. You can takes this further and edit it all into short videos like I have been doing for my Round Britain trip.

 

[mjcoon]

...

I sometimes try to catch the lat/long numbers and keep reciting them while I get out a chart, usually to find whatever was happening is doing so 100 miles away.

Which is the part of the problem that "What Three Words" is intended to address. Pity it fails to address any other aspects!

 

[Dutch01527]

Lat/Long is essential for deep water sailing but I have always thought that bearing and distance makes much more sense when communicating a position near a coast, especially in an emergency situation.

Asking for help when “ one mile South of Start Point Lighthouse” is much more likely to be successful than ”50°12.398'N 3°38.527W”. It Is also much less likely that a mistake will be made under stress.

 

[Supertramp]

My AIS unit is often set to Lat/Long on passage and I plot on a chart to show hourly progress as its easier to follow progress on paper than a screen. It also displays SOG which is useful. I do use it on passage to monitor tide effects hour to hour. I (still) can make mistakes translating it onto the chart, something that must be a risk in distress situations.

Bearing and distance is simpler, providing you are confident of the headland and the distance. Both bearing/distance and position is better still.

Electronics are OK when you are totally familiar with them and use them daily. I am not. 80% of my Raymarine instruction book is foreign to me.

Will return to sharpening my stone axes.....

 

[Frank Holden]

Lat/Long is essential for deep water sailing but I have always thought that bearing and distance makes much more sense when communicating a position near a coast, especially in an emergency situation.

Asking for help when “ one mile South of Start Point Lighthouse” is much more likely to be successful than ”50°12.398'N 3°38.527W”. It Is also much less likely that a mistake will be made under stress.

Nothing says the speaker hasn't a clue more than when they give their position to the third decimal place of a minute of arc i.e. 1.7 metres - give or take.
I think I have told the story before -- short form -- when small boat 'in distress' one quiet Sunday morning was asked where they were replied in rising falsetto 'very close to the rocks!!!!!!!!!'.