Latitude and Longitude - no more?

MADRIGAL

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Range and bearing from a known location definitely gives a fix. You can plot it on a chart, and compare your current bearing to the landmark (or more likely, it's reciprocal) as you approach the area. I suppose the advantage of lat/long. co-ordinates is that it would be easy to enter it as a waypoint and navigate to it by GNSS.
And of course, when out of sight of land.
 

mjcoon

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I don't fly on fancy airlines that offer a screen in front of you that shows where you are, so I hold my phone's GPS in the window. Then wanted to show the map position on my tablet but found copying out lat/long cumbersome, as agreed here. So I display a "GEO:" QR code on the phone and read it on the tablet. Then the tablet knows I want to see where we are on the map...
 

Buck Turgidson

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I don't fly on fancy airlines that offer a screen in front of you that shows where you are, so I hold my phone's GPS in the window. Then wanted to show the map position on my tablet but found copying out lat/long cumbersome, as agreed here. So I display a "GEO:" QR code on the phone and read it on the tablet. Then the tablet knows I want to see where we are on the map...
look out of the window!
 

boomerangben

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Surely a lat and long is only useful for communicating a position between individuals, media types, gadgets and so on. Most of the time we are quite happy where we are, have no need to communicate it to anyone/anything, nor are generally bothered about the lat and long of other water users. So most of the time the lat and long completely irrelevant.

The trouble comes when we have to communicate our position to others or vice versa. There are loads of ways of doing it, lat and long, range and bearing, OS grid reference, W3W, postcode etc etc. Each one can be very accurate (ok perhaps not postcode), so there should be no reason not to use any of them. The problem comes when we try to communicate the position, regardless of the reference system. Miss Heard, Miss Spelt, Miss Read, Miss Written, Miss Typed, Miss Identified and in the case of range and bearing, the Tarbert and Scalpay twins and triplets, are all there to play havoc with communication.

I’ve had first hand experiences of each system being failed by its users, once ending up 120nm away from where we needed to be.

I don’t think it should be a surprise that most of us don’t use lat and long most of the time. The problem comes when we need to tell someone where we are. Then starts a chain of events ending in the “bring two and six pence, we’re going to a dance” scenario. We still haven’t solved that one yet. Having said that there are systems in use that can cut out many of the links in the chain and the SAR helos can actually receive and plot positions from DSC distress and 406 transmissions automatically (assuming they are in range and sight of the transmitting aerial)
 

Sandy

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Surely a lat and long is only useful for communicating a position between individuals, media types, gadgets and so on. Most of the time we are quite happy where we are, have no need to communicate it to anyone/anything, nor are generally bothered about the lat and long of other water users. So most of the time the lat and long completely irrelevant.

The trouble comes when we have to communicate our position to others or vice versa. There are loads of ways of doing it, lat and long, range and bearing, OS grid reference, W3W, postcode etc etc. Each one can be very accurate (ok perhaps not postcode), so there should be no reason not to use any of them. The problem comes when we try to communicate the position, regardless of the reference system. Miss Heard, Miss Spelt, Miss Read, Miss Written, Miss Typed, Miss Identified and in the case of range and bearing, the Tarbert and Scalpay twins and triplets, are all there to play havoc with communication.

I’ve had first hand experiences of each system being failed by its users, once ending up 120nm away from where we needed to be.

I don’t think it should be a surprise that most of us don’t use lat and long most of the time. The problem comes when we need to tell someone where we are. Then starts a chain of events ending in the “bring two and six pence, we’re going to a dance” scenario. We still haven’t solved that one yet. Having said that there are systems in use that can cut out many of the links in the chain and the SAR helos can actually receive and plot positions from DSC distress and 406 transmissions automatically (assuming they are in range and sight of the transmitting aerial)
You have forgotten those very important waypoints pubs! Sadly the number of pub waypoints is reducing.

I must be the odd one out as everything gets converted to a lat and long when doing a fix.
 

RunAgroundHard

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Surely a lat and long is only useful for communicating a position between individuals, media types, gadgets and so on. Most of the time we are quite happy where we are, have no need to communicate it to anyone/anything, nor are generally bothered about the lat and long of other water users. So most of the time the lat and long completely irrelevant.

The trouble comes when we have to communicate our position to others or vice versa. There are loads of ways of doing it, lat and long, range and bearing, OS grid reference, W3W, postcode etc etc. Each one can be very accurate (ok perhaps not postcode), so there should be no reason not to use any of them. The problem comes when we try to communicate the position, regardless of the reference system. Miss Heard, Miss Spelt, Miss Read, Miss Written, Miss Typed, Miss Identified and in the case of range and bearing, the Tarbert and Scalpay twins and triplets, are all there to play havoc with communication.

I’ve had first hand experiences of each system being failed by its users, once ending up 120nm away from where we needed to be.

I don’t think it should be a surprise that most of us don’t use lat and long most of the time. The problem comes when we need to tell someone where we are. Then starts a chain of events ending in the “bring two and six pence, we’re going to a dance” scenario. We still haven’t solved that one yet. Having said that there are systems in use that can cut out many of the links in the chain and the SAR helos can actually receive and plot positions from DSC distress and 406 transmissions automatically (assuming they are in range and sight of the transmitting aerial)

Your making a mountain out of a mole hill. Giving your position just isn't that hard.
 

RunAgroundHard

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I agree, giving your position is very easy (although I am sure we have all misread something in our lives) It’s what happens to that position as it gets moved down a chain thats the issue.

Really! I doubt that is a big deal, yes of course it can happen, but I still think that is rare and once a position is communicated, it remains accurate.

The OP states that familiarity with Lat and Long day to day is no longer there; dont doubt what is being said. However, was Lat and Long ever that clear? I was taught navigation before Philips AP Navigator was a thing. The majority of navigation was pilotage and fixes were used to put the position on the chart, and navigate from. When that position was noted in the log it was nearly always a bearing from something with distance; taking lat and long was too much of a faff.

Later when Philips AP Navigator became popular, Lat and Long was obvious and used. It was also obvious to anyone who learned to navigate with a Sextant. Along came the plotter and Lat and Long disappeared as a regular used position. Lat and Long has never really been a big thing for many coastal sailors in my experience. It's funny how today we know to the meter where we are and Lat and Long sources are everywhere, yet it has become a back ground thing.

A.I. will likely one day be in our DSC VHFs and other emergency response devices and give far more accurate responses than we could ever do as mere humans. It will one day know everything that we dont as we sail along, if we buy the box.
 

penberth3

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You have forgotten those very important waypoints pubs! Sadly the number of pub waypoints is reducing.

I must be the odd one out as everything gets converted to a lat and long when doing a fix.

Junctions on main routes were often known by the name of the adjacent pub, and there always was a travellers pub or Inn. It probably started to disappear with the Motorway age,
 

Sandy

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A.I. will likely one day be in our DSC VHFs and other emergency response devices and give far more accurate responses than we could ever do as mere humans. It will one day know everything that we dont as we sail along, if we buy the box.
Not sure AI will help, but the technology does exist in some luxury cars to send a a call to the emergency services if a road traffic collision occurs involving the vehicle.
 

boomerangben

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Really! I doubt that is a big deal, yes of course it can happen, but I still think that is rare and once a position is communicated, it remains accurate.

The OP states that familiarity with Lat and Long day to day is no longer there; dont doubt what is being said. However, was Lat and Long ever that clear? I was taught navigation before Philips AP Navigator was a thing. The majority of navigation was pilotage and fixes were used to put the position on the chart, and navigate from. When that position was noted in the log it was nearly always a bearing from something with distance; taking lat and long was too much of a faff.

Later when Philips AP Navigator became popular, Lat and Long was obvious and used. It was also obvious to anyone who learned to navigate with a Sextant. Along came the plotter and Lat and Long disappeared as a regular used position. Lat and Long has never really been a big thing for many coastal sailors in my experience. It's funny how today we know to the meter where we are and Lat and Long sources are everywhere, yet it has become a back ground thing.

A.I. will likely one day be in our DSC VHFs and other emergency response devices and give far more accurate responses than we could ever do as mere humans. It will one day know everything that we dont as we sail along, if we buy the box.
I don’t think it would be a big deal for most uses of lat and long, ie transferring from a nav screen to a paper chart.

But I have spent many years in an environment where you are taking a lat and long (and indeed other references) provided by others, sometimes quite a long chain of others and it is surprising how often it is wrong. We have specific protocols on transferring lat and longs between people (voice), from people to paper, and from paper to nav system, because it can get miss communicated so easily. The consequences might be tragic or expensive so correct communication is paramount. And no it’s not because I work with amateurs, quite the opposite.
Maybe for some, but you always return to where you started as you are a boomerang.
I always make it home! Well so far, anyway
 
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