Lalizas lifejacket failure

[Courageous]

Word to the wise - I would be steering clear of buying anything from these characters! Particularly if it's connected in any way with safety equipment - which, let's face it, you never really know whether it's gonna work until it's too late!

Had an accidental discharge of one of their Omega manual inflation lifejackets (one with a CO2 bottle but of a pull handle design) and in the event it only half inflated. One chamber failed to break open the stole. I guess if I had been in the water and relying upon this then it could have got me into some trouble. As the unit was less than a year old I contacted Lalizas through the internet and was contacted by a guy from Lalizas UK (I bought the thing from Italy but am resident UK) who later claimed to be the designer of the jacket. He was little concerned of both my plight and the failure of his product and eventually washed his hands of the situation saying that "he was helping only because I was british and that it's not really his problem since I bought the unit in Italy". As ever, yet another case of "I got ya money what's ya problem?"

Buyer beware!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[simonwood]

Thats disgusting, i won't buy anything from them.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[alahol2]

I'm sure I've read a magazine article recently that reckoned many of the lifejackets may not break open both lungs when inflating. It seems to be a known, but little publicised, 'feature'.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.troppo.co.uk> Follow the Tightwad Sailor</A>

 

[MickPe]

that was going to be one of my initial queries on this forum - which lifejacket? Can you recommend any others? Much appreciated.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Courageous]

Simon - thanx for your support, I have to admit I was half expecting to be slated for this and that but to be honest I'm increasingly finding "customer service" in the traditional sense to be something in the past! Am about to have a run in with banks sails over a wheeled holdall I purchased from them only in April. The bl##dy things all split on the under belly where some relatively small stones on a spanish street scraped at it..... Banks response to this? "You obviously dragged the bag over unsuitable terrain..." Yeah I did! A flipping pavement with a few stones on it. All this after only two outings. Bloody disgracefull I say. To rub salt into it they even suggested how "I" might modify their bag to make it suitable!!

Oh and guess what?? You can stick that 1500 quid quote for a new Genoa up your @rse while yer atit! There.... Rant over, for now at least!

Now Mick - in answer to yours I should consider anything Beaufort to be infinitely reliable in my thirty years of Seagoing experience, both Merchant, Royal and indeed private.

Go for it my son!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MickPe]

Cheers for the advice

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[whisper]

Suggest you also do a search on these forums for "lifejackets" as I think there's been quite a few threads re. what to buy etc. For what it's worth I've got XMs, Baltics and Crewsaver models. They have all worked ok but I think you pay for the Crewsaver name as they are approx twice the price of XMs. Whatever you buy make sure you get Crotch Straps as well.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[graham]

I have heard of this happening with other makes so now only use foam filled lifejackets for the kids. Adults can make their own choice.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[charles_reed]

Lifejacket failures

Unfortunately all CO2 lifejackets are prone to failure due to the CO2 cylinder becoming partly unscrewed and either not firing or only partly filling the bladders.

This was highlighted in an AIB report about 3 years ago, on a FV capsize, which resulted in 2 fatalities. In that case the fault was in the proprietary hydrostatic release, but it happens to nearly all screw-in bottles.

You don't specify why the lifejacket failed to open - but I would offer 2:1 on the loose cylinder as being the cause, allowing most of the charge to dissipate.
If that is the case you may be doing Lalizas an injustice.
Crewsaver, a very reputable company, recommend you check the cylinder is fully home every time you don the jacket.

The only way to ensure the effectiveness of safety equipment is frequent inspection and servicing - I check-weigh the bottles on all my lifejackets at least annually and use a cyano-acrylate thread-locking compound when I replace the cylinder.

Whilst I have no brief for Lalizas (their equipment appears to only have the benefit of low price) I feel the manufacturer should have had a better opportunity to rectify any alleged failure.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[kimhollamby]

While I would have hoped that Lazilas would have taken the trouble to investigate further (and if your report is correct that is certainly wrong) I have experienced poor inflation on a number of jackets on test over the years due to a number of factors.

I agree with Charles that there is a possibility of the screw-in cylinder type coming loose and if it does so, semi-inflation at best will be the result. Also look out for corrosion around the screw threads.

While not relevant here I think there is an even greater possibility of the Hammar type systems having a leak if not seated properly when replaced or checked; the screw-in cylinder is a bit of a no-brainer for people but Hammar mechanisms need care when re-assembling.

I've also had a lifejacket inflate incorrectly because the Velcro sections didn't let go as well as intended, in at least two cases because straps became fouled around them and in one case becaause the amount of Velcro used on the design seemed excessive. One side of the lung inflated okay but the other refused to let go and the excess CO<font size=1>2</font size=1> bled off befor doing its job. Not much good for the inexperienced perhaps but these days if in the water and wanting to get an inflate lifejacket doing its thing properly I pull on the Velcro to open the bladders anyway, on the basis that it is silly to make the lifejacket struggle.

Picking up on another post here for certain types of sailing I would use a foam lifejacket but be aware that most types sold these days are 100N buoyancy at best. Although the European reg for these terms them 'lifejackets' in the old BS days we would have called them 'buoyancy aids' if used for adults. Having tested a number of these most (in keeping with the 100N standard) don't turn you over unassisted. The majority of 150N air inflates that I have tested do, especially if fitted withy thigh or crotch straps.

Incidentally, lest anyone think I am a bit careless and keep falling off things these experiences come from playing the role of dunk dummy on lifejacket tests, MOB trials and sea safety demos. From those am personally convinced, at the very least, that a lifejacket is an item you should buy in the shop or off the show stand, where you can take it out of the packet, inspect and check for fit. Many seem very high cut these days, not always comfortable for men, almost impossible to keep on for any length of time for women -- a bit self-defeating if you are buying waistcoat air-inflates with an eye to encouraging crew to wear and forget they have them on.

Another design issue to watch out for when buying is the amount of Velcro used around the back of the jacket if you have long hair -- as the lung inflates the Velcro can catch long hair and start to pull it -- have seen it happen once on a childrens' lifejacket test a few years ago.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Courageous]

Some interesting comments being raised not least of which is yours Charles ;

"I feel the manufacturer should have had a better opportunity to rectify any alleged failure".......

I haven't given much detail at all about what opportunities they were given and yet you feel they should have been given more? Do you have inside information perhaps? Of course I feel I gave them every opportunity but there we go - I am perhaps a little one sided on the issue but in any case I remain the consumer who has fortunately only been inconvenienced by this but inconvenienced none the less!

For what it's worth in a previous life I was a marine engineer and retain an enquisitive mind and I can report that the cylinder was indeed fully home with no apparent distortion of the fitting.

To be honest the thread was more a major criticism of a supplier who couldn't care less - which in a safety environment I find quite shocking but there we go.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[StephenSails]

I am sorry to hear that your lifejacket failed.

A couple of points to remember as other have mentioned, you should check the cylinder every time if possible. I use self-amalgamating tape to secure the cylinder on mine as this half inflation occurred on my Baltic lifejacket a few years ago.

Lalizas operates on a Franchise system so Lalizas in the UK is a separate company to the company in Italy and Greece etc. I don't think this reaction from Lalizas in the UK was right and it certainly does not sound like the usual helpful and friendly staff I know there so if I where you maybe a letter to Barry Stone (he is boss) at the Poole office would be good move.

In the mean time it might be worth testing your lifejacket again to see what happens.

I think your reaction to come on this forum is fair but I think to right off the safety equipment by them is not, I have been selling Lalizas equipment for 5 years now and I have never had a single item returned. The lifejackets do also conform to CE standards.

If you get stuck, let me know and I will see what I can do to help.

Cheers

Stephen








<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtinguniverse.com>http://www.yachtinguniverse.com</A>

 

[charles_reed]

Can\'t disagree with

your comment about the reaction from the UK franchisee - but you should, perhaps, have got back to the Italian branch.
The Commission has some quite robust consumer protection regulations in force and this is one of those where they could have been effectively deployed.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Birdseye]

Re: Can\'t disagree with

The commissions consumer protection is far from robust, certainly as implemented in the UK. In my experience, this reaction to items bought abroad is not unusual. The UK distributors of many products attempt to protect their high margins by discouraging grey imports, whether it be cars, motorbikes, boats, electronics or almost anything else.

The common market isnt!

And a lifejacket which doesnt inflate properly and develop the buoyancy required is patently not "fit for purpose". Bit surprised that some posters are philosophical about it.

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by birdseye on 04/07/2004 21:42 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Courageous]

Thankyou Stephen but you have provided the very name to have given me such poor support - I was not going to mention it personally! Could have gone back to the Italians but why should I after all I had hit upon the very guy who designed it???

;-)

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Rick]

Re: Lifejacket failures

Charles,

Any chance you could provide a web link to the report you note? I work with the Sailability organisation, and we'd like to use autoinflate jackets for our clients - maybe we won't be.

Thanks

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MASH]

Re: Lifejacket failures

Dear Capt. Submarine, far be it for me to offer one with 30 years seagoing experience (you salty old dog you...) but how about sending lazilas a link to this thread - it might just prompt them to redeem themselves in public?

As for banke, "Unfit for the purpose for which sold" usually works wonders, especially if put in writing. Take it back to the shop and ask necely for a refund.

ps Does your ship with an unmentionable name slam to windward in a F7?



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[charles_reed]

It\'s on the MAIB reports

and specifically referred to the Hammar auto-inflate mechanism.

I understand that the manufacturers recalled all those that were in the supply line and have since introduced a modification which is intended to guard against recurrence.

On further enquiry I discovered it was a common failing of all the screw-in CO2 sockets.
What Ralph Nader would have made of the industry-wide silence on the matter is, perhaps, an interesting conjecture.

However I would urge everyone to expect an inflation failure on their auto-inflate lifejackets and practise the alternative inflation - after all a perfectly good inflation tube is provided.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[graham]

Some posters have recommended using various sealing material and self amalgamating tape on their co2 bottles.

Personally I would not do this as if the thread is not designed to have PTFE or whatever on it the extra thickness could prevent the bottle going on far enough. This could lead to problems.Also thin flakes of it could get into the intake causing unseen problems.

I dont think anyone has suggested theere is a problem with the bottle seals leaking provided they are screwed on tightly.

Self amalgamating tape would stop the bottle unthreading but would also make inspection difficult.

If the manufacturer dosnt specify it I would not use it.It is even possible that the chemicals in the glue on the tape could react badly with the material forming the air bladder.I dont know if it does or not but it is a consideration to think about.

What I do know is that even the slightest departure from the manufacturers instructions will give them a let out clause if it fails.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Courageous]

Hehe Capt Spud (MASH) I'm glad I caught you in a sober moment. The "Old Sun" closed for refurbishment is it??

Thanks for your concern but I haven't finished with either of them yet!

My Lord I have a kunning plan........

Mine slams into rocks but not so into deep water in a seven or eight - maybe he hadn't let go his mooring lines??? Takes allsorts - most of them licorice.....

<hr width=100% size=1>