Knifes

[Mariner69]

Re: Knives

I agree with your sentiment.

We seem to have lost sight of the main problem. The failure was of the powers that be to enforce the laws that existed. It should not matter whether or not anybody carries a knife in their pocket, bag or car what should be enforced is where the knife is utilised as a weapon then the full majesty and weight of the law should be applied. The right to self defence has always been enshrined in English law, hence 'right' but it must be proportionate, we seem to have ignorned this point and our rights and freedoms are being wittled away.

We seem to have become a society of sheep rather than a free thinking people with duties and responsibilities and a desire that something must be done rather than accept that the problem has been there for centurys, see references to the Teddy Boys and flick knives and the London gangs at the start of the 20th century. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[dhobyb]

Re: Knives

Just to add my tuppence worth, When I worked offshore one of the biggest causes of accidents was people cutting themselves using a knife, so a safety chappie did a bit of research and came to the conclusion that for every use for a knife there was a safer instrument that did the job as well or even better, so perhaps before you travel with your knife you should think do you really need it?. Hence knives are not allowed on offshore oil installations. I think the chef might be excluded but I am not sure.

 

[JackBartlett]

Re: Knives

That's typical "elf'n'safety" nonsense. Yes, a saw is better at cutting wood, scissors at cutting paper or cloth, a hotwire at cutting rope, a screwdriver at undoing screws, a nailfile at getting crud out from fingernails, a wrecking bar at opening paint tins, a drill at making holes etc. etc.

But a sailor's knife is a great general purpose tool, and it's light and portable (especially compared with the toolbox you'd need to carry all the "better" alternatives. And if it's properly sharp and has a locking blade, it's safe, as well.

The root of the problem is that our so-called "democratic" government has screwed up so badly that it is convinced that it will be facing mass unrest before very long.

That's why they want to ban peaceful protest, ban pocket knives, ban everything, in fact, while at the same time investing in things like the Raytheon Pain Ray that they can use to subdue and control the people that pay their fat salaries and gold-plated pensions.

PS On my campervan, I invariably carry a substantial carving knife. It lives in the galley drawer. I've never been prevented from getting on a ferry with it. Never even been asked. Probably helps that Margaret Becket is a caravanner!

 

[cnh]

Re: Knives

I don't have a sailing knife, and have never felt the need for one. Have used a bread knife twice with pots/traps around the rudder, but that's all.

 

[oldsalt]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
The 9/11 bombers took 4 aircraft using 2" craft knives and slit a stewartess' throat. I don't want to be sat next to knife carrying stranger on my flight.


[/ QUOTE ]

Apart the from previously mentioned of airline wine bottles, why do many airlines still use metal cutlery on their flights? I fly regulary from Pakistan and all flights have metal knives...

 

[dt4134]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a sailing knife, and have never felt the need for one. Have used a bread knife twice with pots/traps around the rudder, but that's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooner or later you'll feel the need for one.

I, or a fellow crew member, have had to cut a line under pressing circumstances on a small number of occasions. One that springs to mind is a block that partially disintegrated and completed trapped the spinnaker guy. The spinnaker had to come down and I wouldn't have fancied looking around to see if we might have a bread knife on board in order to get it down.

 

[Seagreen]

[ QUOTE ]

The part of this legislation that worries me is that I could very easily have a criminal record because I was sailing all day with a knife on my belt and forgot to take it off before walking into town.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. I usually have a currey knife on a lanyard round my waist attached to me, just fitting in my shorts pocket. I usually only remember this when I come to strip off at the end of the day. I could so easily just wander into a quayside pub... Bingo! Accidentally helping a copper to achieve his monthly quota.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Indigo has a diver's knife which fits into a plastic holster and is strapped to the tiller. Dead sharp. Serrated edge as well. Blunt, screwdriver tip. Always know where it is. No need to worry about which pocket the knife is in (oh my god, it's under my oilies), and no need to take it ashore.

It's the one on this page.
http://www.simplyscuba.com/ProductDetails.aspx?StockID=46068

 

[Slow_boat]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with your sentiment.

We seem to have lost sight of the main problem. The failure was of the powers that be to enforce the laws that existed. It should not matter whether or not anybody carries a knife in their pocket, bag or car what should be enforced is where the knife is utilised as a weapon then the full majesty and weight of the law should be applied. The right to self defence has always been enshrined in English law, hence 'right' but it must be proportionate, we seem to have ignorned this point and our rights and freedoms are being wittled away.

We seem to have become a society of sheep rather than a free thinking people with duties and responsibilities and a desire that something must be done rather than accept that the problem has been there for centurys, see references to the Teddy Boys and flick knives and the London gangs at the start of the 20th century. Nothing new under the sun.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, the ofensive weapons act was introduced in response to the percieved threat/fashion for teddy boys to carry knives and razors. I think that the point of the law is to discourage the carrying of knives rather than wait for them to be used, in which case the offence would be wounding or murder, not offensive weapon.

As for the self defence notion, anyone who is carrying a knife for self defence is carrying it as a weapon. There is no such thing as a defensive weapon. Would a reasonable person be quick enough, strong enough, determined enough and nasty enough to stab someone out of hand? Stabbings and slashings are not pleasant. I dislike carrying weapons as they can always be taken off you and used against you by a more experienced adversary.

I'm not sure that there is a 'right' to self defence. There is a defence in law but that is a defence in court to a charge. There is also the principle of 'reasonable force' and the expectation that one will retreat rather than escalate.

And to the person who said that at least one police officer (me, I assume) thinks that saying you forgot to take the knife out of your car is not a reasonable excuse, it was a court that decided that. It is up to the individual officer to decide, in the light of all available information, whether it is a reasonable excuse in all the circumstances at the time. The officer has to prove that any action he/she has taken is proportionate and necessary.

BTW, my sea knife is a Green River with a lanyard which lives in a sheath screwed to the side of the companionway, opposite the white flare. I sometimes carry a Swiss army knife in my pocket.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Knives

Talking of keeping a knife on the boat reminds me of a bigger boat I once sailed that had three knives semi-permanently mounted aboard, one strapped to the pushpit, one to the mast just under the goose neck, and one to the steering pedestal.

 

[Seven Spades]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]

And to the person who said that at least one police officer (me, I assume)

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Was it you that said it, I thought you were quoting.

 

[Slow_boat]

Re: Knives

I was quoting a stated case. Glad to see you're awake at the back there. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[David_Jersey]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that there is a 'right' to self defence. There is a defence in law but that is a defence in court to a charge. There is also the principle of 'reasonable force' and the expectation that one will retreat rather than escalate.

[/ QUOTE ]


A knife is no more a weapon than a hammer. Depends on purpose. and use. and whilst I have no problem with folk being charged with carrying a weapon. IMO their is no such thing as "reasonable excuse". Their is only a reason. and if the reason (to carry a Knife or hammer etc) is legal their is no need for an "excuse".

Of course I am out of step with the legal side of things on this view - but then again the concept of "reasonable force" is out of step with reality. Their is either a reasonable <u>time</u> to use violence. or their is not. The level of force employed should be no concern of the law.....violence in the real world does not involve rules. yer use whatever advantage / tool you have.

[ QUOTE ]

Would a reasonable person be quick enough, strong enough, determined enough and nasty enough to stab someone out of hand? Stabbings and slashings are not pleasant.

[/ QUOTE ]

A reasonable person in the right (wrong) circumstances would press the button for a nuclear strike /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

.

 

[Slow_boat]

Re: Knives

I agree, to carry anything for use as a weapon is against the law. A knife carried by a carpet fitter, say, as part of his trade is carried with 'reasonable excuse' It has been held by court that 'reasonable excuse' for a multi tool was a man on his way to a party and needed the bottle opener tool on it to open bottles when he got there..

As for reasonable force, what is reasonable depends on the circumstances at the time but is usually just a bit more than is being used against you. It is not overwhelming force.

I'm used to violence (as part of my job. I have to run towards what others run away from) and though I can usually avoid it, I am pretty quick at picking up signals and acting when needs be. However, I am not ruthless enough to stab someone unless I am in immediate mortal danger and there is no other way out and I suspect that most people are neither ruthless enough, fast enough or street-wise enough to pick up the signals when it comes down to it. We have feelings, we would look in their eyes and hesitate and that's enough to loose.

If anyone is considering carrying a knife as a weapon, I suggest you look at some pictures defence wounds on victims hands. They still make my stomach turn more than the more serious wounds.

 

[JackBartlett]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
It is up to the individual officer to decide, in the light of all available information, whether it is a reasonable excuse in all the circumstances at the time. The officer has to prove that any action he/she has taken is proportionate and necessary.

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/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
This would be hilarious if only it were not so serious.

The plain fact of the matter is that at every level, from speeding tickets to the cold-blooded assassination of innocent people on their way to work, courts have shown themselves quite prepared to condone anything a police officer does, unless there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Every night on our TV, it seems, we see documentaries featuring gangs of armed thugs in uniform who cruise the streets, beating up civilians while some idiot voice-over tells us what heroes they are.

Sadly, it seems that the only people who have nothing to fear from the police are the police themselves and the villains they are supposed to be protecting us against.

 

[johnabbott893]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, to carry anything for use as a weapon is against the law. A knife carried by a carpet fitter, say, as part of his trade is carried with 'reasonable excuse' It has been held by court that 'reasonable excuse' for a multi tool was a man on his way to a party and needed the bottle opener tool on it to open bottles when he got there..

[/ QUOTE ]
The police don't have my support for this cras law. There are many who side with me. I can easily break this law unintentionally and Mr Plod, bless him, is tasked with enforcing it against the wishes of a great number of normally law abiding citizens. If we loose consensual policing then we end up needing a police state in order to enforce law and order. I have quite enough experience police states on my travels without adding England to the list (Scotland is another matter). This is a bad law because 'reasonable excuse' no longer reflects what the man on the Clapham Omnibus thinks of as reasonable.

 

[Robin]

Re: Knives

[ QUOTE ]
The police don't have my support for this cras law. There are many who side with me. I can easily break this law unintentionally and Mr Plod, bless him, is tasked with enforcing it against the wishes of a great number of normally law abiding citizens. If we loose consensual policing then we end up needing a police state in order to enforce law and order. I have quite enough experience police states on my travels without adding England to the list (Scotland is another matter). This is a bad law because 'reasonable excuse' no longer reflects what the man on the Clapham Omnibus thinks of as reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well we just got back from working on the boat and when I dropped the keys for our ladder padlock into the door pocket on the car I found a KNIFE! An old kitchen knife with a 4" blade that I left there during last winter's fitout and had taken with me to peel an apple. I AM A CRIMINAL! Fortunately we made it home without getting caught but I dread to think what could have happened.. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Csail]

Re: Knives

Don't worry about it, i always carry one and have never been in trouble. Just keep it hidden and NEVER use it even in self defence.

 

[tabernacleman]

Re: Knives

I'm a bit rusty on the 'offensive weapon' legislation, which has also been mixed in with 'knife' law. However I still understand that the definition of offensive weapon reads, MADE - INTENDED - ADAPTED. That means a DAGGER is an offensive weapon ie MADE. A breadknife is not, it was made for cutting bread, however if I take it down to my local to do some 'carving' then it is INTENDED to be used as a weapon. the 4 x 2 with nails sticking out the end = ADAPTED (could be argued MADE) so the stanley knife was made for cutting carpet etc. The hammer for knocking in nails, the knuckle duster ? the bayonet,? the cosh ? Those articles MADE require the possesser to prove lawful authority ie the bobby with his baton has lawful authority when on duty etc. The possession of articles which can be used ie the hammer, it is up to the prosecution to prove intent. As I first said, the knife legislation should not be confused with offensive weapon stuff, and I think you will find that the knife law relates to pointed implements as well, so it covers the marlin spike.
Crazy? you bet, but we elected them /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[matelot]

Oi! Careful who you're calling a Guardianista!

You may think that knife crime is a major problem but thats not the reality. 277 deaths last year which is 0.05% of total mortality and less than 2% of the deaths we have from alcohol abuse, less than 10% of road deaths. Sure any knife deaths are too many, but there is a hysteria here being whipped up by the likes of the Daily Wail and which leaves some people afraid to walk in the city centres at night for fear of being stabbed.

And the silly laws we now have do come about because politicians fear the publicity, and the charge of "doing nothing". Will they do anything more than annoy the law abiding? I doubt it, just as the gun laws post Hungerford did nothing for gun deaths but instead stopped legitimate shooting as a hobby.