Rum_Pirate
Well-known member
Anyone here able to give the main advantages/disadvantages of a ketch rig over a yawl or vice versa?
V
Ketch v yawl
- Thread starter Rum_Pirate
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Coaster
Active member
Two hours later and it looks like the answer is no.
I've never seen much difference between the two types of rig. I believe that the defining characteristic is the location of the rudder post relative to the mizzen mast. Rudder post forward of mast = yawl, post aft of mast = ketch.
So of two very similar boats, with identical sail plans, one could be a ketch and the other a yawl by simply moving the rudder post a foot or two.
Yawls tend to have smaller mizzens and thus proportionally more sail area elsewhere. To me that suggests less versatility than the ketch rig.
LittleSister
Well-known member
In my view the overwhelming advantage of the yawl rig is that it looks so nice.
You also have a built in riding sail, and a clear cockpit.
People will be along in a minute to tell you it is not so 'efficient' as a sloop, but doesn't reduce the size of the main, to ease sail handling, as much as a ketch. Some people just have no taste!
You also have a built in riding sail, and a clear cockpit.
People will be along in a minute to tell you it is not so 'efficient' as a sloop, but doesn't reduce the size of the main, to ease sail handling, as much as a ketch. Some people just have no taste!
Rum_Pirate
Well-known member
In my view the overwhelming advantage of the yawl rig is that it looks so nice.
You also have a built in riding sail, and a clear cockpit.
People will be along in a minute to tell you it is not so 'efficient' as a sloop, but doesn't reduce the size of the main, to ease sail handling, as much as a ketch. Some people just have no taste!
It so does reduce the size of the main, not sure if as much as a ketch, but it sure makes handling easier.
KATE :
THEN
NOW
FWB
N/A
Well a yawl is generally nicer looking than a ketch but Kate looked better as a cutter.
Rum_Pirate
Well-known member
If you want to see LOTS of pics of Kate as a cutter rig have a look here
http://www.patrickroach.com/showimages.asp?gallid=6&l1gall=37&l2gall=17&sortby=3
seven pages of them.
I love the ones on page 5
I was the one driving the dinghy while Philip sailed around us.
It was fairly scary at times. Like this pic with the boom about to decapitate us
http://www.patrickroach.com/images....gall=0&l4gall=0&searchstr=&sortby=3&index=225
dmmbruce
New member
It is said that ketches are more efficient as the mizzen is big enough to be a driving sail and many will perform well with just mizzen and staysail.
Yawls are often seen as sloops with a riding sail. This gives comfort at anchor or when hove-to. But it does not seem to do much else.
There used to be discussion that the small mizzen made it easier to balance the sail plan so that the tiller did not need to be tended the whole time, ie early self steering. I always thought this was a good idea but never got the chance to try it.
Mike
Yawls are often seen as sloops with a riding sail. This gives comfort at anchor or when hove-to. But it does not seem to do much else.
There used to be discussion that the small mizzen made it easier to balance the sail plan so that the tiller did not need to be tended the whole time, ie early self steering. I always thought this was a good idea but never got the chance to try it.
Mike
daveyw
Active member
Does Kate ever fly a topsail
T
timbartlett
Guest
Going back a few years, I was lucky enough to be employed to drive a yawl one season and a ketch the following season. Of course it not a perfect like-for-like comparison, but there were more differences between the two than similarities -- and the ketch was by far the more practical rig.
The only use I really found for the yawl's mizzen mast was something to hang a mizzen staysail from, for the 1% of the time that it was possible to use one.
The ketch mizzen provided drive, trim, somewhere to hoist a mizzen staysail. Dropping the main but keeping the mizzen and working jib was a good way of losing sail area in a hurry -- even if all the punters were busy revisiting the taste of breakfast, and on a run in light airs, the airflow over the mizzen somehow seemed to stabilize the main.
The only use I really found for the yawl's mizzen mast was something to hang a mizzen staysail from, for the 1% of the time that it was possible to use one.
The ketch mizzen provided drive, trim, somewhere to hoist a mizzen staysail. Dropping the main but keeping the mizzen and working jib was a good way of losing sail area in a hurry -- even if all the punters were busy revisiting the taste of breakfast, and on a run in light airs, the airflow over the mizzen somehow seemed to stabilize the main.
prv
Well-known member
That's often quoted, but I believe it's only the definition for racing purposes where they needed something precise and unambiguous. Really it's more about the relative sizes of main and mizzen - if the mizzen's much smaller she's a yawl, if merely a bit smaller, a ketch. But imagine the arguments in the protest room if you based the rating rules on such a fuzzy definition
.I know a boat whose mizzen mast is mounted on a strongback directly over the rudder post; that would confound the raters
. But she's clearly a yawl based on the sizes of the sails. Pete
Greenheart
Well-known member
The Riddle of the Rigs
Surely there can be no justifiable doubt or ambiguity about the qualities, quantities and reasons for differences between K & Y?
The ketch allows a large spread of sail to be split into manageable portions, all of whose thrust is delivered as close as possible to the centre of lateral resistance...and the total sail area set, can be greater than on one mast alone, eg. maxi-yacht Steinlager 2...
...whereas, aboard a single-master whose design tends towards lee-helm, the setting of a small additional sail as far aft as possible, will help correct the imbalance. Hence the vital importance of the mizzen being stepped astern of the rudder-post.
Didn't anybody read (and see the movie of) The Riddle of the Sands? The converted lifeboat Dulcibella gains a mizzen, confusing to the pretty eyes of Clara Dollman, who expects to find a cutter...the yacht has become a yawl, to correct her steering.
I heard some remark made about yawls, to the effect that they show the disadvantages of ketches and sloops...
...presumably the mizzen's windage, without the ketch's reduction of individual sail sizes.
No argument, they're very pretty though.
Surely there can be no justifiable doubt or ambiguity about the qualities, quantities and reasons for differences between K & Y?
The ketch allows a large spread of sail to be split into manageable portions, all of whose thrust is delivered as close as possible to the centre of lateral resistance...and the total sail area set, can be greater than on one mast alone, eg. maxi-yacht Steinlager 2...
...whereas, aboard a single-master whose design tends towards lee-helm, the setting of a small additional sail as far aft as possible, will help correct the imbalance. Hence the vital importance of the mizzen being stepped astern of the rudder-post.
Didn't anybody read (and see the movie of) The Riddle of the Sands? The converted lifeboat Dulcibella gains a mizzen, confusing to the pretty eyes of Clara Dollman, who expects to find a cutter...the yacht has become a yawl, to correct her steering.
I heard some remark made about yawls, to the effect that they show the disadvantages of ketches and sloops...
...presumably the mizzen's windage, without the ketch's reduction of individual sail sizes.
No argument, they're very pretty though.
penfold
Well-known member
Traditionally yawls have more structural problems than ketches; the hull aft of the rudder post is necessarily lacking in moulded depth and it is difficult to get enough stiffness into a wooden counter to avoid working in heavy weather. With modern construction methods and materials this is not a problem. A problem I have encountered with some smaller aft cockpit ketches is that there's a bloody mast in the middle of the cockpit and a mizzen boom where my head wants to be when helming; I suspect this happens mostly when the design starts as a sloop and is then modified with a ketch rig without altering the deck moulding much.
snowleopard
Active member
These days almost all boats are built to have maximum hull volume within a given LOA. This means little stern overhang and thus nowhere to place a mast. Having said that, I regularly sail a yawl - a Drascombe Longboat - and find the jib/mizzen rig very handy in strong winds.
binch
New member
Y v K
Surprising but most replies dwell on appearance.
Let's look at strong winds.
Force 7 - 9
There are few yawls that are comfortable
Sloops are not advised to try to sail.
Cutters do quite well, if there is a well balanced No £ jib
Ketches go. unless the seas are so big and/or steep as to inhibit progress. You should have a mizzen big enough to reef, like a Dandy, aka a Dundee, (which is the original spelling)
If you heave to under this wind and sea, then no 3 jib aback and reefed mizzen iss very effective.
Winds of 10 or greater.
I have found that a well-balanced ketch is the only rig that can cope.
I reef the storm jib and set the miz at my own special reef, (reduces the mizzen to one third of the area)
With force 12, and I have experienced thaz off Bermuda the best rig is submarine.
Surprising but most replies dwell on appearance.
Let's look at strong winds.
Force 7 - 9
There are few yawls that are comfortable
Sloops are not advised to try to sail.
Cutters do quite well, if there is a well balanced No £ jib
Ketches go. unless the seas are so big and/or steep as to inhibit progress. You should have a mizzen big enough to reef, like a Dandy, aka a Dundee, (which is the original spelling)
If you heave to under this wind and sea, then no 3 jib aback and reefed mizzen iss very effective.
Winds of 10 or greater.
I have found that a well-balanced ketch is the only rig that can cope.
I reef the storm jib and set the miz at my own special reef, (reduces the mizzen to one third of the area)
With force 12, and I have experienced thaz off Bermuda the best rig is submarine.
Phoenix of Hamble
Active member
Salty John
Active member
For short handed cruising I'd have a cutter headed sloop, but the yawl does look pretty. Hinckley made some nice yawls and even if the rig is a bit of an affectation I'd happily have one.
I probably wouldn't have a ketch again.
I probably wouldn't have a ketch again.
Greenheart
Well-known member
I'm sure there's a name for that...but what is it? Ah, yes! A cutter!
I'm pretty sure yawls are or were generally regarded as better upwind performers than ketches, presumably because the diminutive mizzen brings the rig closer to a single-master. If I recall correctly, aside from other considerations, the scale (in diminishing efficiency) goes:
Sloop
Cutter
Yawl
Ketch
Schooner
It's easy to see why racers prefer no-effort-spared-for-speed sloops, but for the widest range of options while cruising, and handier-sized sails to cope with in the rough, two masts would appear to beat one, for sheer versatility.
Here's a Swan 55 yawl. Hard to believe designers like Nautor would have needed a mizzen, to correct inherent steering-imbalance...
View attachment 17987
...maybe they just loved how she looks. Easily the prettiest of their designs, I'd say...though hardly modern.
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Salty John
Active member
I'm sure there's a name for that...but what is it? Ah, yes! A cutter!
A cutter rig can be applied to a ketch or a sloop - cutter headed ketch, cutter headed sloop. I've sailed both. No need to roll your eyes. The Ocean Youth Club had 72' cutter headed ketches, great boats for a full crew.
Personally, I found my ketch unnecessarily complex. I prefer the simplicity of a sloop and I like a cutter rig or, at least, a detachable inner forestay. That's just me. To each his own.
Greenheart
Well-known member
I see your point. And I never doubted that setting a main-staysail allows any ketch or yawl to become cutter-headed.
And it’s a neat idea to have a detachable inner forestay, allowing reduced sail to stay away from the ends of the vessel. Nothing looks less helpful than the tiny triangle of a mostly-rolled genoa, high above the foredeck, pulling the bow round.
I'm wondering whether mizzen-staysails are only made to bespoke order?
Considering how rare ketches are now, and how infrequently one sees a mizzen-staysail, it must be the costliest cloth around, in terms of quids-per-square meter, divided by hours in use. That could be a fascinating new formula for depressing yachtsmen's accountants.
Here's the Camper & Nicholson 55-foot yawl. I wonder how much she differs from the Swan 55?
View attachment 17988
And it’s a neat idea to have a detachable inner forestay, allowing reduced sail to stay away from the ends of the vessel. Nothing looks less helpful than the tiny triangle of a mostly-rolled genoa, high above the foredeck, pulling the bow round.
I'm wondering whether mizzen-staysails are only made to bespoke order?
Considering how rare ketches are now, and how infrequently one sees a mizzen-staysail, it must be the costliest cloth around, in terms of quids-per-square meter, divided by hours in use. That could be a fascinating new formula for depressing yachtsmen's accountants.
Here's the Camper & Nicholson 55-foot yawl. I wonder how much she differs from the Swan 55?
View attachment 17988
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Greenheart
Well-known member
Edit: here's the Swan 55 side-view...in sloop form here...plenty of difference in the keel shape:
View attachment 17989
View attachment 17989
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