capnsensible
Well-known member
Seems to me that people who go sailing on boats have much clearer ideas about safe practices than those that sail armchairs....
Jack stays and tethers are used too often in calm weather
- Thread starter Adios
- Start date
Adios
...
well yeah, you can throw that truism on any thread. No idea what you think about the subject of the thread though. Why do you think most jack stays are in such unsafe configurations on nearly all cruising yachts including coded?
WannabePirate
Member
May as well throw it on this thread…
The gaff I’m sailing at the moment has solid gun whales about up to knee height, with solid metal guard rail up to mid thigh. There is a raised coachroof to about knee height, a pilot house, and a knee height forepeak with a space between it and the coach roof at the mast.
We have run tight lines from stern to bow, unfortunately outboard, and a line across the mast area.
We have made lanyards up short enough to not go over the gunwhales and guard rails…and can reach everything crawling in a heavy sea and the lanyards are sized for this. In lighter seas there is an abundance of solid hand rails at all kinds of heights.
It’s been the subject of much discussion aboard and if anyone has opinions we’d love to hear them.
The gaff I’m sailing at the moment has solid gun whales about up to knee height, with solid metal guard rail up to mid thigh. There is a raised coachroof to about knee height, a pilot house, and a knee height forepeak with a space between it and the coach roof at the mast.
We have run tight lines from stern to bow, unfortunately outboard, and a line across the mast area.
We have made lanyards up short enough to not go over the gunwhales and guard rails…and can reach everything crawling in a heavy sea and the lanyards are sized for this. In lighter seas there is an abundance of solid hand rails at all kinds of heights.
It’s been the subject of much discussion aboard and if anyone has opinions we’d love to hear them.
Supertramp
Well-known member
They are added because someone thought they should be there without thinking through the implications of using them. It's a bit like wearing the wrong kind of safety glasses or gloves. I had coated wire ones and removed them because they could roll underfoot causing exactly the problem they should be helping reduce. Made a mental note to replace with webbing but haven't yet. I do use a range of tether points when working on deck. This and Concerto's MOB post are providing some really good information sharing, challenges and suggestions to preventing MOB and recovering afterwards.
Am I the only one who will be changing some equipment and practices the next time I'm out?
Send from land but not an armchair.
Supertramp
Well-known member
My layout sounds very like yours, and is a great deal safer to move around than a flush deck.
I tend not to tether while moving forward as I have one or both hands for holding on. I tether when working and using both hands. A kind of risk assessment.
I do think that you have to be using safety devices and practices before you get into the situation where you really need them. A few hours after the second photo I encountered a 35knt+ squall and dropped the hank on jib. Without excess drama and tethered, if a little scared.
Adios
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Ideal. Not that it would be pleasant but you could get your whole body down behind that if you had to.
geem
Well-known member
I know your boat and have sailed on it a few times. Its very different to mine.
Although we have flush decks, we have very substantial granny bars that come up to my lower back, above my belt. They are curved where you lean on them so very secure. Directly in front of the sprayhood with have a slightly raised coachroof, but that is flat on top and covered in teak. The beauty of the flush deck, is that around the main mast there is little to trip over. With tall guardwires (guardrails further aft) they are a primary handhold. They are kept bar tight for this reason. There is no gate in them as this makes the whole thing less substantial. The stanchions are solid aluminium with bases bolted down to a very substantial toerail that is bolted through the deck every 100mm with M8 bolts. We had the new stanchions custom made to be taller to suit our existing pushpit and pulpit height. There wasn't anything off the shelf of the correct height.
We always go forward on the high side and with a 44ft hull and 18 to 19tonne weight the motion is soft. She doesn't heel fast compared to a modern production yacht of the same length and she never ever spins up into the wind. A 6ft long barn door rudder and 6t lead keel see to that.
So maybe a smaller flush deck yacht with nothing substantial to hold on to could be a problem in heavy weather. I find our flush deck boat no problem at all to go forward.
Wansworth
Well-known member
I can confirm that a smaller flush decked boat would be a problem…….went to see a Jouet 24 ,to purchase,coming out of the cockpit even tied up to the pontoon seemed scary,the nearest thing to hold on to was the guard wire on the deck edge….the best way to get to the mast would be sitting down
Supertramp
Well-known member
I think that understanding your own boat and making modifications and adjustments is the right way to go. My flush deck comment relates to smaller boats where you are exposed the moment you are on deck, and where the foredeck is swept by water with almost every wave and you are airborne each pitch. That is a different game from my boat and probably yours.
Stemar
Well-known member
Going back to the original question, once you've got your lifelines and jackstays or whatever sorted, IMO, no, if it's calm you probably don't need them, but if you get into the habit of using them when you don't need 'em, you'll be attached when the wake from that container ship you'd forgotten about catches up with you or the squall you didn't see coming arrives. Yes, I know you should have been watching for both but, if you're human, you will get distracted. That willowy blonde in the monokini on that boat over there wasn't watching out either 
capnsensible
Well-known member
Why do people stand up and walk going forward in bad weather when it's much better to crawl and stay below the guard wires? Use the jackstays to advantage.
Seems another generation of sailors need to re learn the centuries old saying 'one hand for yourself, one for the ship'.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
There are a near infinite number of boat types and layouts, there are an infinite number of crew configurations, there is infinite variety in the combination of weather, seastate and visibility, and each skipper has varying degrees of risk aversion .... this means there is no "one size fits all" solution to anything boat safety related.
It is entirely the responsibility of the skipper to assess his boat, his crews ability, and the conditions, and to make the call as to what, if any, safety precautions are necessary.
These threads are interesting in that they enable people to share their experiences and opinions, as well as their equipment setup and rules - it is then up to the readers to decide if anything posted here is of relevance to their individual circumstances.
When I was doing my advanced driving course, the instructor who was an ex-police driver asked us why we were using the indicators in situations where there was no other traffic about. His reasoning was that we had developed a habit which, although laudable, was having a negative effect on our awareness - he proposed we should assess if our indicators were needed at every junction, arguing that it then developed a habit of actively assessing other traffic which developed a better awareness of the traffic around us.
I think this is also true for safety at sea .... it is too easy to have a number of rules which are blindly applied and which then take the place of a proper evaluation of conditions and crew.
It is entirely the responsibility of the skipper to assess his boat, his crews ability, and the conditions, and to make the call as to what, if any, safety precautions are necessary.
These threads are interesting in that they enable people to share their experiences and opinions, as well as their equipment setup and rules - it is then up to the readers to decide if anything posted here is of relevance to their individual circumstances.
When I was doing my advanced driving course, the instructor who was an ex-police driver asked us why we were using the indicators in situations where there was no other traffic about. His reasoning was that we had developed a habit which, although laudable, was having a negative effect on our awareness - he proposed we should assess if our indicators were needed at every junction, arguing that it then developed a habit of actively assessing other traffic which developed a better awareness of the traffic around us.
I think this is also true for safety at sea .... it is too easy to have a number of rules which are blindly applied and which then take the place of a proper evaluation of conditions and crew.
Adios
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People seem to get washed under the lower guard wire so that doesn't seem like the solution.
Anyway I'm not saying the problem is in heavy weather. What about people walking up the side deck in calm weather attached to jack stay that runs along the side deck? Is that ideal? They want it convenient so it has to be one run. Now they have the risk of being towed to death if they do fall in and a jack stay that isn't in a suitable position for heavy weather.
Adios
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Having commuted by motorbike in London for a few years I still never assume nothing is coming even when I've got the green light and I never entirely trust that someone's indicators mean they are turning into the junction. The greater the risk the greater awareness and concentration. Maybe not having a tether makes people hold on tighter. If the tether is poorly positioned allowing exiting over the rail then its a false sense of security reducing the concentration. Double bad.
dansaskip
Well-known member
Very few yachts I see have netting attached to the guard wires, although it is more common perhaps on live-aboards and blue water cruisers / It would prevent or at least hinder this.
geem
Well-known member
For an ocean passage or a shorter passage lasting a couple of nights a sea or more, we rig the lower guardwires. We have a dog onboard. She won't go on deck to use the loo unless she feels secure. This means we run lines from the aluminium toerail to the lower guardrail. A bit like lacing shoes. We zigzag the line all along the bottom guardwire to toerail from bow to stern and across the transom. As well as keeping the dog onboard, is has also stopped us losing a few things over the side. It's way easier to rig than netting and would keep a person from being washed under the lower guarwire
capnsensible
Well-known member
Indeed. Every boat owner has the opportunity to regularly review how they equip and operate their yacht. And practice.
For the huge numbers who go sailing, perhaps infrequently, on a variety of other boats, it's important that people are shown how to move around a boat safely. Nothing new in that! Learning how to use equipment fitted is the key.
Theorising how to improve is a good exercise but as always, practice, practice, practice.
penberth3
Well-known member
Easy answer, adjustable length tether.
lustyd
Well-known member
On the windward side of the yacht that's quite an achievement. I feel that most people getting washed under a guard wire didn't fully think through why they needed to go forward while sailing on the leward side of the boat without heaving to. Or they're racing and prioritised results over living.
Personally I feel that anyone relying on hardware to save them is going to come a cropper eventually. Good practice, practice, and thinking through the safety of the situation will get you 99% of the way there. My boat has lines the length of the boat and I use a relatively long tether despite being on my knees and holding on to various handholds on the way. I'm always on the windward side though so my tether is to prevent me falling further than the middle of the boat rather than over the rail.
Adios
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maybe part of the solution but if the jack stay is 3 inches from the rail it would mean belly crawling up the deck.