Jack stays and tethers are used too often in calm weather

Supertramp

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On the windward side of the yacht that's quite an achievement. I feel that most people getting washed under a guard wire didn't fully think through why they needed to go forward while sailing on the leward side of the boat without heaving to. Or they're racing and prioritised results over living.

Personally I feel that anyone relying on hardware to save them is going to come a cropper eventually. Good practice, practice, and thinking through the safety of the situation will get you 99% of the way there. My boat has lines the length of the boat and I use a relatively long tether despite being on my knees and holding on to various handholds on the way. I'm always on the windward side though so my tether is to prevent me falling further than the middle of the boat rather than over the rail.
Avoiding going on deck, not going on the leeward side and reassessing a particular situation to review what's needed are all sensible. There are occasions, often at the limit or beyond previous experience, when you need to act and do something on deck. It could be that someone forgot to lash the anchor down, pole needs unrigged, storm sail needs set or in my case gybe preventer needs released. You don't want to be inventing procedures, looking for hardware and trying stuff for the first time when that happens. Hardware is very useful if it stops the escalation of a simple incident into a more serious one. And established, practiced, procedures for deck work which are used well before they become necessary. Each boat, and it's skipper's risk tolerance, is different.
 

Stemar

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ISTM that safety anywhere, not just on the water is an attitude of mind. Sure, there's kit that you can have to help when that attitude of mind slips or something unforeseeable happens, but without the right state of mind, you're going to end up in the drink, splatted against a motorway crash barrier or minus a finger.

The attitude that I know what I'm doing and I'm always careful so I don't need safety kit is just a shortcut to becoming a statistic; the one that will keep you is I'll wear my LJ/safety belt and still be aware of what's happening around me - constant risk assessment and adjustment of behaviour.
 

WannabePirate

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Easy answer, adjustable length tether.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot. They are quite common in other sports. I haven’t been able to test any on boats yet given lack of proper materials/permission.

Number 1 is an adjustable plate such as this. Lyon Adjustable Rope Lanyard

Specifically the plate in the middle. I don’t use them for their intended purpose but I think they may seem interesting on a boat. They’re quick to adjust and quite secure.

Number 2 is What I currently want to try. It’s tubular webbing with bungee on the inside. I could make two clips to the specific max length I wanted with tubular webbing, and feed bungee up the inside to make it shrink for easy stowage/self tailing on most yachts.

Number 3 is what I will probably end up using. I’ll tie a figure 8 on the bight with 8-10mm rope, equal tails on both sides. At the end of each tail is an attachment, and halfway up each tail is a butterfly knot. Both tethers can then be long or short and instantly and securely adjusted to two shorter tethers by clipping the attachment on the end to the butterfly knot in the middle.
 

KevinV

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not going on the leeward side
Interesting - I prefer going on the leeward side when heeled over - if going to the bow - the boom is an extra handhold en route and forces you to get your weight low, you're (more) out of the wind and spray, your feet are solid on the toerail, the genoa is close behind you and the handholds on the coach roof are coming towards you. If you do get knocked into the guardrail you're not falling so far, so impact with less speed.
If just going to the mast I'll tend to go on the windward side - it's less busy.
 

Supertramp

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Interesting - I prefer going on the leeward side when heeled over - if going to the bow - the boom is an extra handhold en route and forces you to get your weight low, you're (more) out of the wind and spray, your feet are solid on the toerail, the genoa is close behind you and the handholds on the coach roof are coming towards you. If you do get knocked into the guardrail you're not falling so far, so impact with less speed.
If just going to the mast I'll tend to go on the windward side - it's less busy.
I agree with you, at least on my own boat which doesn't heel much and has a clear walk forwards. I have been on some where getting round the lee side of the sprayhood when heeled at 25 degrees was a challenge. I think one of the points from this thread is to think about what feels best for your own boat rather than adding jackstays and using a too long tether because you feel you should.
 

geem

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Interesting - I prefer going on the leeward side when heeled over - if going to the bow - the boom is an extra handhold en route and forces you to get your weight low, you're (more) out of the wind and spray, your feet are solid on the toerail, the genoa is close behind you and the handholds on the coach roof are coming towards you. If you do get knocked into the guardrail you're not falling so far, so impact with less speed.
If just going to the mast I'll tend to go on the windward side - it's less busy.
I think that is fine in calm weather where the boat is upright. Try that when it's blowing 40kts and seas to go with it. It's really not safe. We very rarely go down the leeward side. With wide side decks the guarwires are always there to hold on to. As the boat leans, the guarwire gets higher. On the leeward side, as the boat leans, the guardwire gets lower and offers little stability. Ultimately, if the boat is knocked down, you are in the water. On the windward side in a knockdown, you will still be on the boat secured by your tether.
 

Poignard

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I usually go along the weather side. If things are really bad I can crawl along in the V formed by side-deck and the coachroof side, with one hand on the grabrail on the coachroof top and the other on the lower guardwire.

Having experienced being lifted off the fore-deck by a wave I make sure I am on a short tether if conditions are bad.

Usually I heave-to before leaving the cockpit in rough weather. Having a boat that heaves-to quietly is a big advantage, I find.
 
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flaming

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Worth noting that there was a fairly recent change in the offshore special regs relating to tethers. To be compliant for cat 3 (i.e Offshore and after dark) racing every crew has to have either a tether of not more than 1m long, or a 2m tether with an intermediate attachment point of 1m.
This came in after the Lion incident.

If working the foredeck in spicy conditions my preference would be for my crew to go forward attached to the jackstay, and then clip the shorter tether to a central hard point on the foredeck to do the job. Anecdotally, it seems to me that the MOBs from the foredeck that have resulted in people being dragged along have occurred whilst the person was engaged in the task they went up there to do, rather than when transiting to or from the foredeck.
 

TLouth7

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It occurs to me that people using them in calm weather has had a negative unintended consequence. People want the convenience of jack stays running uninterrupted along the side decks and in calm weather you get the sense of security of a tether without much risk of going over anyway because its calm.

Its an over abundance of caution fail.
This seems like a totally bizarre premise for a post. What makes you think that lots of people are using tethers unnecessarily in calm weather?
 

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This seems like a totally bizarre premise for a post. What makes you think that lots of people are using tethers unnecessarily in calm weather?
Because of the way the jack stays are laid out. Along the side decks they are not suitably placed for severe weather where there is a real chance of getting washed over. If they were ONLY used in severe weather I suspect they wouldn't be along the side decks but more inboard, therefore I surmise they are being used mainly in calm weather and for that reason the placement of the jack stays is not given very seriously consideration.
 

Chiara’s slave

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On those rare occasions I might need to leave the cockpit in bad weather, it’s always going to be the windward side, and we have tethers with an intermediate attachment point, and our jackstays run up against the side of the coachroof, being attached at either end to the crane lifting points. It’s one of the areas where multihulls can actually be safer. There’s nearly 3m of trampoline and outrigger between me and the water, and if it’s proper breezy, that would be clear of almost all wave crests. I feel that falling overboard should be in it’s proper place in the list of hazards on a performance tri.
 

Daydream believer

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May as well throw it on this thread…

The gaff I’m sailing at the moment has solid gun whales about up to knee height, with solid metal guard rail up to mid thigh. There is a raised coachroof to about knee height, a pilot house, and a knee height forepeak with a space between it and the coach roof at the mast.

We have run tight lines from stern to bow, unfortunately outboard, and a line across the mast area.

We have made lanyards up short enough to not go over the gunwhales and guard rails…and can reach everything crawling in a heavy sea and the lanyards are sized for this. In lighter seas there is an abundance of solid hand rails at all kinds of heights.

It’s been the subject of much discussion aboard and if anyone has opinions we’d love to hear them.
So how do you stand up to do any work on the mast if you are effectively anchored to the deck
 

WannabePirate

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So how do you stand up to do any work on the mast if you are effectively anchored to the deck
Everything is reachable on your knees! On this particular boat everything, even sheets, go through at least a 3:1 tackle system. So they’re quite easy to handle without needing to wrench about.

Though of course, longer tethers are available! Just wouldn’t reach for them in most instances.
 

IanCC

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I’ve been thinking about this a lot. They are quite common in other sports. I haven’t been able to test any on boats yet given lack of proper materials/permission.

Number 1 is an adjustable plate such as this. Lyon Adjustable Rope Lanyard

Specifically the plate in the middle. I don’t use them for their intended purpose but I think they may seem interesting on a boat. They’re quick to adjust and quite secure.

Number 2 is What I currently want to try. It’s tubular webbing with bungee on the inside. I could make two clips to the specific max length I wanted with tubular webbing, and feed bungee up the inside to make it shrink for easy stowage/self tailing on most yachts.

Number 3 is what I will probably end up using. I’ll tie a figure 8 on the bight with 8-10mm rope, equal tails on both sides. At the end of each tail is an attachment, and halfway up each tail is a butterfly knot. Both tethers can then be long or short and instantly and securely adjusted to two shorter tethers by clipping the attachment on the end to the butterfly knot in the middle.
Nah, Kong Slyde is what you want and some climbing rope to go in it. Climbing rope absorbs shock, makes the whole set up safer. Incidentally, from a climbers perspective, the whole jackstay thing is a joke.
 

dunedin

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Because of the way the jack stays are laid out. Along the side decks they are not suitably placed for severe weather where there is a real chance of getting washed over. If they were ONLY used in severe weather I suspect they wouldn't be along the side decks but more inboard, therefore I surmise they are being used mainly in calm weather and for that reason the placement of the jack stays is not given very seriously consideration.
How the heck can I get out of the cockpit which has a large sprayhood safely clipped on without a jackstay on the side deck? Not possible more inboard.
But having everything set up to do all normal operations from the cockpit is the first safety feature, and going forward on the high side (on hands and knees if serious conditions) is next, and combined short/long harness hooks third.
What actual analysis of MOB incidents have you done before leaping to your conclusions. Looks like mos if the recent ones weren’t clipped on at all. And other ones I have heard of have tended to be on the narrow part of the foredeck - where a central tether is not much different from side ones - as flaming says if really need to work at the bows (and in our case would only be due to a gear failure) then clip second tether to a fixed point.
 

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How the heck can I get out of the cockpit which has a large sprayhood safely clipped on without a jackstay on the side deck? Not possible more inboard.
But having everything set up to do all normal operations from the cockpit is the first safety feature, and going forward on the high side (on hands and knees if serious conditions) is next, and combined short/long harness hooks third.
What actual analysis of MOB incidents have you done before leaping to your conclusions. Looks like mos if the recent ones weren’t clipped on at all. And other ones I have heard of have tended to be on the narrow part of the foredeck - where a central tether is not much different from side ones - as flaming says if really need to work at the bows (and in our case would only be due to a gear failure) then clip second tether to a fixed point.
I'm certainly not the only one thinking the current usual way is poor. Here are some alternative layout for the jackstays. The ideal being a line from an arch, over the sprayhood to the mast up the center of the boat. Can clip on from either side and go up either side with the same length tether, could even jump across the cabin roof if have to I guess. How to stay on deck and avoid MOB - Yachting Monthly If no arch then from the cockpit around the coaming and to the mast rather than along the side decks. Lots of good discussion on it in that link
 

Poignard

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I'm certainly not the only one thinking the current usual way is poor. Here are some alternative layout for the jackstays. The ideal being a line from an arch, over the sprayhood to the mast up the center of the boat. Can clip on from either side and go up either side with the same length tether, could even jump across the cabin roof if have to I guess. How to stay on deck and avoid MOB - Yachting Monthly If no arch then from the cockpit around the coaming and to the mast rather than along the side decks. Lots of good discussion on it in that link
The arch could be that useful thing, a boom gallows.

1689190845099.png
 

IanCC

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Can you expend on that?
Gosh. Where to begin?

Well first of all, none of the stuff is ce marked as safety kit, so none of it is properly tested by an independent body. Maybe the safety harness is. In climbing no ce mark means it can't be sold as climbing equipment period. That goes for the bolt through the deck, the jack stay itself( if wire, then wire and swages), the clips on the lifeline and the tether itself. Having said that i don't think sailing is plagued with loss of of life from regular breakages of the listed items. But it is banged into climbers heads that the impact forces that can be generated by an 80kg body falling even a metre can be enormous, hence the 'joke' comment.

Watch this:
 
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