It's official we can now go sailing again!

[Mark-1]

Thanks for sharing.

people could visit between 11:00-15:00 upto x2 people per boat at a time and that you can not "take your boat out"

They seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what is going on here! We're not really supposed to be visiting boats. We *are* supposed to be exercising with social distancing - which sailing perfectly achieves.

It further goes on to say that if you take your boat out, paddle board or go on a kayak you will be fined by the Hbr Authority.

Does anyone know if they have some kind of standing authority to impose restrictions and fines?

 

[duncan99210]

Do these harbour authorities also need to take into account whatever instructions emerge on quarantining overseas visitors?

There's been enough fuss about air passengers to date being allowed in without checks. It would be unfortunate if a harbour closed to leisure users was reopened before things were in place.

From what’s been stated on the various news websites, there’s no intention of imposing quarantine on arrivals fromFrance or Ireland: given that that covers the majority of likely arrivals by small craft into UK, I don’t think it’s going to be a significant problem.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Revised guidance from QHM Portsmouth

3020-Recreational Boating During Coronavirus Revised Guidance | Royal Navy

A rather odd notice, but I think can be summarised as "if you think you and your boat are ok and you are social distancing, crack on".

 

[Lucky Duck]

Which works for me rather than the more authoritarian route taken by the organisation to the West of them!

 

[Lucky Duck]

Thanks for sharing.



They seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what is going on here! We're not really supposed to be visiting boats. We *are* supposed to be exercising with social distancing - which sailing perfectly achieves.



Does anyone know if they have some kind of standing authority to impose restrictions and fines?

Feeling in a charitable mood - I wonder if this Sunday's announcement caught them out and they are trying to buy time until their staff are re-mobilised.

The RHHA facebook page is insightful, without any irony they have posted pictures of overcrowded footpaths while mainly concerning themselves with the local avian population.

 

[Blue Sunray]

..........................................................................

 

[Lucky Duck]

And Chi Conservancy are "awaiting further specific government guidance due to be released this week".

Edit - somehow missed this bit from another bit of their website which I have reproduced from another thread

Recreational boating and other water use
The Government has advised that from Wednesday 13 May, unlimited outdoor activity will be permitted in England. It is unclear whether this includes any, or all forms of boating, or something in between. The Department of Culture, Media and Sport have undertaken to clarify the position this week.

Government has also advised that people would be permitted to travel to other destinations in order to exercise, but that any activity will still need to be alone or with members of a single household and social distancing must be followed at all times.

Chichester Harbour remains open to vessels operating within government guidance.

It is incumbent on the Conservancy and other operators of marine facilities in Chichester Harbour to look after the safety of users and importantly the safety of their staff. In anticipation of a return to some form of recreational boating (subject to DCMS advice) the Conservancy have put in place the following measures and advice:

• Please follow social distancing guidance (stay 2 metres apart where possible).
• Conservancy jetties at Itchenor and Emsworth are marked with direction of travel and 2m spacing on the ‘T’ Head.
• Please wash your hands regularly.
• Visitor facilities will not be available for overnight stays, and no rafting.
• Please confirm that any facilities you intend to travel to are open and have agreed to receive you, both in Chichester Harbour and beyond.
• Maintenance piles are not available.
• Rescues pose a risk to both the casualty and the rescuer and there is likely to be reduced rescue response capacity in the Harbour. Please ensure that your craft is well maintained and that you sail within the limits of your abilities.
• If social distancing requirements cannot be maintained facilities may need more intrusive management or be closed

Please continue take action to prevent the potential spread of infection. The latest guidance from the UK Government can be found here.

While we await further government guidance, we are content for harbour users to take exercise on the water in kayaks, paddleboards and the like, and that the owners of vessels on moorings can access them to confirm their safety.

 

[FairweatherDave]

"The Government has advised that from Wednesday 13 May, unlimited outdoor activity will be permitted in England. It is unclear whether this includes any, or all forms of boating, or something in between. The Department of Culture, Media and Sport have undertaken to clarify the position this week. "......like Little Grebe.......I cut and pasted this off the Chi conservancy website. I'm struggling how "unlimited outdoor activity" can't mean sailing.

 

[Seven Spades]

As I say they are all looking for a reason not to open rather than looking for justification to open. It is all the wrong way around.

The government does not need to itemise every activity, one by one it simply says you can do stuff, don't ask what stuff just stuff as long as you are social distancing. It is not difficult boating is not a special case, it is far less hazardous than driving cars or bicycles or using a power tool in the garden. All of those activities are far more likely to result in hospitalisation. I just don't get this obsession with wanting to lock down boating. Boating is a bit like fishing for the most part it is done in isolation, but there is an optional social element.

 

[graham]

FWIW I got a text message update (albeit from one of the much smaller) Hamble yards around a couple of hours ago saying people could visit between 11:00-15:00 upto x2 people per boat at a time and that you can not "take your boat out" and should "keep yourself on your boat" and not allowed to stay overnight. It further goes on to say that if you take your boat out, paddle board or go on a kayak you will be fined by the Hbr Authority. Not sure if that ultimately came out of the apparent meetings taking place today, but the source is reliable and unlikely to have quoted the "you will be fined by the Hbr authority" unless they had been informed of such.

BTW - making no judgement on any of the above, just passing it on as an FYI and to show how there is still a lot of contradictory info circulating around

Making everyone visit between 1100 and 1500 is crazy. It will result in larger concentration of people and more difficulty social distancing.

 

[Stork_III]

Amendment to the Regulations says. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/500/pdfs/uksi_20200500_en.pdf

New sub clause (ba) "ba) to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing— (i) alone, (ii) with one or more members of their household, or (iii) with one member of another household;”; "

Public open space defined as "5) For the purposes of paragraph (2)(ba), “public open space” includes

(a) land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;
(b) land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a), as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b);
(c) land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000(c) (see section 1(1) of that Act(d)). "

If your boat is in a Public Open space as above go ahead. If not your journey might cost you the new increased fines.

 

[alexincornwall]

As I say they are all looking for a reason not to open rather than looking for justification to open. It is all the wrong way around.

The government does not need to itemise every activity, one by one it simply says you can do stuff, don't ask what stuff just stuff as long as you are social distancing. It is not difficult boating is not a special case, it is far less hazardous than driving cars or bicycles or using a power tool in the garden. All of those activities are far more likely to result in hospitalisation. I just don't get this obsession with wanting to lock down boating. Boating is a bit like fishing for the most part it is done in isolation, but there is an optional social element.

+1. Well said.

 

[Blue Sunray]

As I say they are all looking for a reason not to open rather than looking for justification to open. It is all the wrong way around.

The government does not need to itemise every activity, one by one it simply says you can do stuff, don't ask what stuff just stuff as long as you are social distancing. It is not difficult boating is not a special case, it is far less hazardous than driving cars or bicycles or using a power tool in the garden. All of those activities are far more likely to result in hospitalisation. I just don't get this obsession with wanting to lock down boating. Boating is a bit like fishing for the most part it is done in isolation, but there is an optional social element.

Quiet.

"unlimited outdoor activity will be permitted in England. It is unclear whether this includes any, or all forms of boating, or something in between."

To echo FairweatherDave, in what way is unlimited and outdoor ambiguous.

What these petty bureaucrats are doing is making it pretty clear that whoever's benefit they feel they are there for is not that of recreational sailors.

 

[SimonP85]

Amendment to the Regulations says. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/500/pdfs/uksi_20200500_en.pdf

New sub clause (ba) "ba) to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing— (i) alone, (ii) with one or more members of their household, or (iii) with one member of another household;”; "

Public open space defined as "5) For the purposes of paragraph (2)(ba), “public open space” includes

(a) land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;
(b) land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a), as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b);
(c) land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000(c) (see section 1(1) of that Act(d)). "

If your boat is in a Public Open space as above go ahead. If not your journey might cost you the new increased fines.

Is a golf course a public open space?

 

[Burt1971]

Amendment to the Regulations says. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/500/pdfs/uksi_20200500_en.pdf

New sub clause (ba) "ba) to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing— (i) alone, (ii) with one or more members of their household, or (iii) with one member of another household;”; "

Public open space defined as "5) For the purposes of paragraph (2)(ba), “public open space” includes

(a) land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;
(b) land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a), as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b);
(c) land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000(c) (see section 1(1) of that Act(d)). "

If your boat is in a Public Open space as above go ahead. If not your journey might cost you the new increased fines.

Yes sailing is "open air recreation etc" but the sea/ lake/ river is not a garden, nor is it "access land". So then does it meet the definition in National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a) plus Section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b)?

Section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a) states that open country is "... to consist wholly or predominantly of mountain, moor, heath, down, cliff or foreshore (including any bank, barrier, dune, beach, flat or other land adjacent to the foreshore). "

So that's a no then. Would think that whilst a boatyard might be adjacent to the foreshore, that is not what the legislation means.

So what about section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b)? This includes:

"any river or canal, and

(b)any expanse of water through which a river, or some part of the flow of a river, runs, and

(c)a strip of the adjacent land on both sides of any river or canal, or of any such expanse of water, of reasonable width, and where a highway crosses or comes close to the river, canal or other water, so much of any land connecting the highway with the strip of land as would, if included together with the strip in an access agreement or order, afford access from the highway to some convenient launching place for small boats...

...In this section “river” includes a stream and the tidal part of a river or stream. "

So this doesn't seem to say that you can go sailing except in a river, albeit including the tidal part of it... ???

Maybe the Govt lawyers rooted around in the existing legislation, and chanced upon the stuff in the Countryside Acts and said "that should do it".

Is there anyone here who is a barrister or Govt lawyer who is competent to give an informed view rather than my amateur legal ramblings?

Or when it says "“public open space” includes..." does that mean ONLY the following things or is the list of things included kind of like a list of non-exclusive examples

 

[Stork_III]

Is a golf course a public open space?

Not with the fees they charge.

 

[Seven Spades]

I am going sailing HRA agree end of argument be happy.

Dear Mooring Holders,

I promised a final update before Wednesday. We are tonight issuing the following guidance to River Users.



From tomorrow, boat owners may return to and use their vessels and dinghies, kayakers, paddle boarders and other River Users may all use the River Hamble and adjacent waters for recreational purposes. Public slipways may be used to access the water within the River. With people able to travel longer distances, it is also timely for owners to visit their craft to ensure that they are seaworthy. Again, from tomorrow, boat owners will be able to leave their moorings and navigate into the Solent and beyond, subject to emerging guidance from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. The onus of responsibility will fall to individual skippers and users to plan their journeys and activity responsibly. If a particular destination is planned, skippers must check that that destination has the facilities or space available, as those locations will also need to ensure compliance with the Law regarding Coronavirus.



Those who keep their boats or craft in or who wish to access the water from private sites such as marinas, yards or Sailing Clubs must check arrangements with the individual site. Social distancing rules must be complied with. Public car parking in and near access points to the River such as Hamble Village, Bursledon and Swanwick is limited. Those using these facilities must be mindful of the need to maintain social distancing. Further advice is provided at the following link to Government guidance on the use of public spaces and outdoor activities:



Coronavirus outbreak FAQs: what you can and can't do



The Harbour Office will remain closed to visitors but will be manned to field any questions and take payments over the telephone. Patrol Officers will be on the water through the day to assist and provide guidance. The Harbour Authority thanks River Users for their understanding and support throughout these continuing exceptional times.





Best wishes

Jason Scott





Jason Scott

Marine Director and Harbour Master

 

[Lucky Duck]

Yes sailing is "open air recreation etc" but the sea/ lake/ river is not a garden, nor is it "access land". So then does it meet the definition in National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a) plus Section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b)?

Section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949(a) states that open country is "... to consist wholly or predominantly of mountain, moor, heath, down, cliff or foreshore (including any bank, barrier, dune, beach, flat or other land adjacent to the foreshore). "

So that's a no then. Would think that whilst a boatyard might be adjacent to the foreshore, that is not what the legislation means.

So what about section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968(b)? This includes:

"any river or canal, and

(b)any expanse of water through which a river, or some part of the flow of a river, runs, and

(c)a strip of the adjacent land on both sides of any river or canal, or of any such expanse of water, of reasonable width, and where a highway crosses or comes close to the river, canal or other water, so much of any land connecting the highway with the strip of land as would, if included together with the strip in an access agreement or order, afford access from the highway to some convenient launching place for small boats...

...In this section “river” includes a stream and the tidal part of a river or stream. "

No mention of lakes (except where a river runs through it?), reservoirs or the sea.

So this doesn't seem to say that you can go sailing except in a river, albeit including the tidal part of it... ???

Maybe the Govt lawyers rooted around in the existing legislation, and chanced upon the stuff in the Countryside Acts and said "that should do it".

Is there anyone here who is a barrister or Govt lawyer who is competent to give an informed view rather than my amateur legal ramblings?

Or when it says "“public open space” includes..." does that mean ONLY the following things or is the list of things included kind of like a list of non-exclusive examples

It says "includes" rather "is" or "are" or some such so I don't think this list is intended to be exhaustive.

This may be where the college of policy notes, when they are updated, will be useful

 

[Blue Sunray]

Hamble seem to have seen sense:

 

[Lucky Duck]

hurrah!