shmoo
New member
Solo sailor starts engine, turns into wind, engages autopilot and goes up to the mast to drop and stow the main. Is our sailor's boat NUC, and thus not "give way" with respect anybody?
Is this "not under command"
- Thread starter shmoo
- Start date
rickp
Active member
I wouldn't think raising/stowing sails is "exceptional circumstances" - but interested in what others think.
MoodySabre
Well-known member
The boat is doing as commanded and the sailor can, without much effort, command it to do something else. I always thought NUC meant something like having lost ability to steer or for a ship a major power failure or engines not operational.
ninky
New member
i think not under command refers to a boat not being capable of being commanded rather the skipper or crew being so busy they can't do everything at once - otherwise there would be many cases of boats not under command cos someone had nipped to the heads etc.
the sensible thing to do however would be to steer clear.
the sensible thing to do however would be to steer clear.
Danny Jo
Active member
Ask what he would do, if, having gone forward, he sees that a pot marker dead ahead. He goes back to the cockpit like a shot, disengages the autopilot, and takes avoiding action, of course. Ergo, he is under command.
If you were to argue that the procedure of dropping the main includes a period during which he is unable to take avoiding action and therefore is not under command, he would (a) make sure he had enough sea room before he started and (b) not waste time hoisting the required "not under command" day signals. Thus rule 19 would be of little use to him.
In any case, what extra stand-on duties does rule 19 give as compared with his duties as a sailing vessel before he started his engine? It makes him the stand-on vessel when in a risk-of-collision approach of a vessel engaged in fishing, and relieves him of his responsibility to keep clear of a vessel constrained by her draught. To interpret the rule in this way would not only put him in breach of rule 2, but also be the height of folly.
alant
Active member
"and relieves him of his responsibility to keep clear of a vessel constrained by her draught."
Try telling Southampton Harbourmaster that!
Try telling Southampton Harbourmaster that!
Daedelus
Well-known member
Why not "manoeuvring with difficulty",-- sometimes I think I should fly that permanently.
maxi77
Active member
I would agree, the vessel is very clearly under command, though it is doing something that does temporarily restrict free manouevre. Thus perhaps the signal should be whiite ball, red diamond, white ball.
On the other hand it is an activity which in reality takes very little time, and the prudent sailer will of course only do it when it is both safe and will not embarras others.
Refueler
Well-known member
I thought this was todays 'Joke' Post ! sorry .... 
dulcibella
Active member
I think that this is a situation where common sense and keeping a good lookout are more relevant than sea-lawyers chewing over the details of ColRegs. If raising sail, try to do it out of the busy places. If someone ahead appears to be raising or dropping sail, give them plenty of room.
Refueler
Well-known member
It's long been termed "prudent seamanship" .... or just plain sensible good manners ...
Pity the Jetski bod who hit my boat while wife and I were handing mainsail didn't display good manners - in fact what he did was to try and do a hard swerve to WHOOOOOSH a large wave over us ! True - happened outside Cowes Hbr ... but he gauged wrong and actually hit us broadside ...
andygc
Member
Very pretty, but Annex I
6. Shapes
(a) Shapes shall be black ...
But I suppose this is a troll and I'm in the net.
Cruiser2B
Active member
maxi77
Active member
It's over 40 years since I was on a ship flying such a signal by day (grey war canoe doing a RAS), and I am sure then they were coloured as the lights but agree the current rules say black for all shapes, how time flies.
alahol2
Well-known member
The skipper is wrong to hoist the 'Not under command' signal but for any other vessel in the vicinity, surely, they don't have the right to ignore the signal or try to interpret why it is being flown. From the outside, the skipper of that yacht could be lying dead in the cockpit and that may be a 10 year old trying desperately to get the sails down.
shmoo
New member
So, all in all, I will take that as a no then....
Refueler
Well-known member
He has a VERY old set of Colregs and signals ... where the day shapes were same as lights ! I mean that's older than MY set !! Actually re-reading it ... it used to be Red - White - Red ... not W - R - W .... ( lights of course have stayed R-W-R ... with shapes now Black).
Last edited:
Refueler
Well-known member
Interesting point ... in event of collision / court case for whatever - mmmmm could be interesting situation of other boat trying to show other's NUC should be ignored or false ...
Being 'in the trade' so to speak - I would expect court to weigh in favour of adherence to visual aspect -> Signal is there - so keep clear ... you have no idea why they have hoisted it ..
Whether right or wrong for boat to hoist ... the rules do say : ( Rule 18 )
Quote ....
Rule 18
Responsibilities between vessels.
Except where rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:
(a) a power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command.
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre.
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
(iv) a sailing vessel.
(b) A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command.
(Ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre.
(Iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command.
(Ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre.
(d)
(i) Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draught, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.
(Ii) A vessel constrained by her draught shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition.
(e) A seaplane on the water shall, in general, keep well clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation. In circumstances, however, where risk of collision exists, she shall comply with the Rules of this Part.
(f)
(i) A WIG craft, when taking off, landing and in flight near the surface, shall keep well clear of all other vessels and avoid impeding their navigation.
(Ii) a WIG craft operating on the water surface shall comply with the Rules of this Part as a power-driven vessel.
Nowhere does it allow a vessel to decide if it has to 'obey' the NUC signal of another. It just says "shall keep out of the way of ...."
lenseman
Active member
- Joined
- 3 Jun 2006
- Messages
- 7,077
- Location
- South East Coast - United Kingdom
When we were RAS, it was Flag "D" not Flag "U" ?
toolarts
New member
So, in some areas areas it is not easy to find a place that is out of the way to raise or lower sails. Sometimes, due to an on-board situation, you need to get that sail down, and you really don't have time to go hunting around for complete emptiness in an estuary where there are a lot of active boats.
Then, as you start taking your sail down, there is the guy who aims right for you, attempting to pass between your bow and the docks 50 feet away, instead of passing behind you where there is 1/4 mile of waterway.
While most people in most situations are able to find room to take down a sail, I am thinking that if you need to get sail down "now," and the area is a bit crowded, hoisting two day marks indicates to everyone that you are not at the helm and there will be moments when you cannot respond to a new collision situation.
What could possibly be wrong with that?