Is this "not under command"

[awol]

It would take me longer to hoist balls, or balls and a diamond (if I actually had such things*) than to drop the mainsail. The waters must be awfy crowded (or your boat very long) if you can't find space to stroll forward, drop the sail, bung a tie round it for tidying later and then back to the helm. If you are capable of single-handing surely this cannot be a problem? Anyway, I usually pick my mooring up under sail.






*Just for the record I do have a single ball and a cone!

 

[Long John Silver]

Hitler couldn't have done that - he only had one ball!

 

[toolarts]

It would take me longer to hoist balls, or balls and a diamond (if I actually had such things*) than to drop the mainsail. The waters must be awfy crowded (or your boat very long) if you can't find space to stroll forward, drop the sail, bung a tie round it for tidying later and then back to the helm. If you are capable of single-handing surely this cannot be a problem? Anyway, I usually pick my mooring up under sail.
*Just for the record I do have a single ball and a cone!

After reading this response, I became utterly convinced that for some skippers lowering the mainsail DOES constitute NUC and the day mark should definitely be hoisted. You completely convinced me with your statement.

The part that convinced me was "If you are capable of single-handing..."

Every capable single-hander was an inexperienced single-hander at some point. The Colregs don't say anything about the experience level of the skipper. They also don't demand in any way, shape, or form a specific level of competence in a skipper. There are no boating tests to qualify someone to take a yacht out on the water.


If a skipper judges that he must get the main down, that the area is windy, crowded, that there are boaters with poor judgment, or that his skill set or boat size is such that it will take him a significant amount of time (during which collision risk exists) away from the helm, then he not only should, but I would say he is virtually required to hoist the day mark.

If he cannot show the proper signal, e.g., at night and he does not have two 360 degree red lights, one over the other, then I would say he should NOT BE OUT.

An inexperienced skipper with a boat that has gotten out of control is a situation that exists frequently on the water and constitutes NUC and the day mark might just prevent an unnecessary collision.

That is what I take away from this thread.

 

[alan_d]

While most people in most situations are able to find room to take down a sail, I am thinking that if you need to get sail down "now," and the area is a bit crowded, hoisting two day marks indicates to everyone that you are not at the helm and there will be moments when you cannot respond to a new collision situation.

What could possibly be wrong with that?

But what about while you are hoisting the two black balls? Wouldn't you need to hoist two black balls to indicate that while you were hoisting two black balls your vessel was NUC?

As already pointed out:
1. It will take as long to raise the day shapes as to drop the sail.
2. Rule 3 defines NUC as ... a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre ... [my emphasis]. There is nothing exceptional about dropping the main; one does it at least once on nearly every sailing trip.

Also, anyone without the wit to keep clear while you are dropping the main is unlikely to know what two black balls mean.

 

[jimi]

I keep my balls out all the time as due to the exceptional cirumstances of my utter incompetence at controlling my boat and my lack of vision and hearing (like many other aged relics of the past century) so best really if everyone keeps out my way all the time, partic since my loss of bowel control due to lactose intolerance but loving cheese .. you have been warned!

 

[alan_d]

... then he not only should, but I would say he is virtually required to hoist the day mark.

If he cannot show the proper signal, e.g., at night and he does not have two 360 degree red lights, one over the other, then I would say he should NOT BE OUT.

Only if his boat is at least 12 metres in length. Rule 27 (g) exempts smaller boats (except those engaged in diving operations) from displaying NUC and RAM lights and shapes.

 

[Marmalade]

I'm with Cruiser2B - under power and autopilot - no.

However - if you're not under power - ie you're head to wind raising or lowering with no means of propulsion then I believe - yes; you have the colregs exemption that NUC bestows. However, you'd have to show a dayshape to be able to claim that status from other vessels - otherwise how would they know?

 

[jimi]

are you NUC when you're ferreting about in the locker looking for yer balls and then hoisting 'em?
I know that even single handed I can drop the main in 2 minutes .. getting my balls sorted out would take quite a bit longer..

 

[awol]

If a skipper judges that he must get the main down, that the area is windy, crowded, that there are boaters with poor judgment, or that his skill set or boat size is such that it will take him a significant amount of time (during which collision risk exists) away from the helm, then he not only should, but I would say he is virtually required to hoist the day mark.

So 'cos this twazock is dim enough to get himself into a stupid situation he is allowed to play a get-out-of-jail-free card and everyone else has to navigate round him. Why doesn't he just go to where it's not crowded to carry out his sail stowing? Does NUC cover rigging fenders, setting up warps, making tea, having a dump and all the other myriad acts that take single-handers away from their helm?

I'm with the through some exceptional circumstance lobby and handing sails is not exceptional.

 

[timbartlett]

The definition of Not Under Command is "a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these rules"

(1) Is raising or lowering sails an exceptional circumstance?
(2) Does switching on an autopilot (or not switching on an autopilot) really make you unable to manoeuvre.

Unless you can honestly answer "yes" to both of these questions, then you are not NUC.

 

[jimi]

The definition of Not Under Command is "a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by these rules"

(1) Is raising or lowering sails an exceptional circumstance?
(2) Does switching on an autopilot (or not switching on an autopilot) really make you unable to manoeuvre.

Unless you can honestly answer "yes" to both of these questions, then you are not NUC.

and if you do answer "Yes" then you're totally incompetent and ought not to be in charge of a bar of soap nevermind a boat!

 

[Marmalade]

Tim - I think your question is theoretical.

If you are dead in the water and not in the cockpit then you *are* not under command - ie unable to comply with colregs. And yes other boats must give way and steer around you. I agree that it's inconsiderate to do this in a fairway but it's just a fact.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the exceptional circumstances thing and not enough on the inability to comply with the colregs. If you hoist the two balls then you're NUC and other vessels should treat you as such.

 

[jimi]

Tim - I think your question is theoretical.

If you are dead in the water and not in the cockpit then you *are* not under command - ie unable to comply with colregs. And yes other boats must give way and steer around you. I agree that it's inconsiderate to do this in a fairway but it's just a fact.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the exceptional circumstances thing and not enough on the inability to comply with the colregs. If you hoist the two balls then you're NUC and other vessels should treat you as such.

Ballocks!!

Exceptional circs are the rules.
Agree you ought to be treated as if nuc if dispalying balls or lights. However if abusing system as a matter of convenience then that is contrary to the good seamanship and is something one should be ashamed off.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Tim - I think your question is theoretical.

If you are dead in the water and not in the cockpit then you *are* not under command - ie unable to comply with colregs. And yes other boats must give way and steer around you. I agree that it's inconsiderate to do this in a fairway but it's just a fact.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the exceptional circumstances thing and not enough on the inability to comply with the colregs. If you hoist the two balls then you're NUC and other vessels should treat you as such.

I don't think that there's a court in the world who would agree with you.

As many others have said, being away from the helm does not make you 'not under command. You can easily run back to alter course.

I have no doubt that exceptional circumstances does not include lowering or raising the sails. The phrase is important because that is what is in the rules, and that is what must be applied.

Flying the signal would be a lie regarding your true status.

 

[lw395]

If you are not in control of the boat while taking sails down, best keep that fact to yourself.
If your passage plan included expecting to be out of control, you are in more trouble than needing a few day signals.
Either sort out your boat so the sails can be adequately controlled or carry adequate crew.

And always drop your sails closehauled on starboard with the engine in neutral, you are stand on vessel to most traffic anyway.

 

[jimi]

The situation I wonder about is a singlehander on a multiday passage grabbing a bit of shut-eye. Wort does the panel think?

 

[stevebrassett]

A couple of questions - how many of you carry two balls (of the signal variety), and, of those, how many have them so that they can actually hoist two, and how many bought a new one and never got round to throwing away the old?

 

[lw395]

The situation I wonder about is a singlehander on a multiday passage grabbing a bit of shut-eye. Wort does the panel think?

I thought it was well established that singlehanders are in a dodgy position. Nothing relieves them of the requirement to keep a look out and give way where required. You do it at your own risk and take the consequences should any mishap occur.
This is of course less of a risk on the open ocean than close to a busy coast.

A 15 minute nap halfway across Lyme Bay should be OK, but so should closing your eyes for 20 seconds on the motorway.....(A theory that you should drive so as to be sure there are no problems, having thought ahead, have the space to be OK if the screen gets shattered fr'instance, not a recommendation to tired commuters!)

But you cannot remove all the risks from offshore sailing anyway.

The legal position if a sleeping skipper's open 60 wipes out another small vessel at 20kts would be a worry. Are the singlehanders being tolerated until a bad accident forces the issue?

 

[Angele]

... and, if you look around you just prior to dropping the main and, although busy, there is no one on a collision course with you. So, you start the engine, engage the throttle, go head to wind, engage autopilot and go to the mast to drop the main.

You are halfway through dropping the main then you see a sailing yacht 100m off your port quarter tack towards you putting you on a collision course. So, you run back to the helm, disengage autopilot, stick the throttle on full and steer hard to starboard as the only way to avoid impact ('cos the helmsmen in the other boat is either unaware of your existence or thinks he is right to exercise his "stand on" right).

What is the correct greeting to shout to the helmsman of the other boat at this point?

Happened to me near the entrance to the Hamble, but outside of the channel, last time I was out.

Some people, eh!

 

[prv]

As many others have said, being away from the helm does not make you 'not under command. You can easily run back to alter course.

Entirely agree. I don't get any particular kick out of helming, so if my crew of the day doesn't either then we'll often proceed under tillerpilot. I also commonly sit or stand in places other than the cockpit - leaning against the mizzen or mainmast, lying on the cabintop, occasionally even standing on the bowsprit on a calm day. Motoring back home into the sunset on Friday with no wind, the two of us were stood either side of the mast where the sound of the engine was far less.

By "marmalade"'s logic, I spend half my time not under command.

Of course that's not really the case, as it takes only a moment to nip back to the cockpit, knock the tillerpilot off its pin, and start maneuvering.

Pete