Is this a good deal

[richrich123]

Hello,

Firstly, thanks to all who have answered my several posts over the last week. I am brand new to boating and looking to buy my first boat. its easy to make big mistakes when you do not know very much so thanks again for all the advice and help. From all of your help, I am now looking at a few options. one is below. I would really appreciate any advice or comments.

I have been looking at this boat which is for sale:

Regal Bow rider

I have been talking to the owner and he has told me a few things that are not 100% right but I also appreciate he is trying to sell his boat and I am sure most would bend a few facts if they are keen to sell their boat.

Firstly, I am keen on fuel economy and he advised me to steer clear of petrol options he told me:

[ QUOTE ]
"Firstly the diesel V petrol issue...
Petrol boats are sold because they are cheap and easy to make, they are basic in construction and mainly made for the american market.
They have only basic raw water cooling thus sea water goes through the engine to cool it and this is the main cause of money spent on maintenance.
If you are thinking about mooring a petrol boat forget it, the salt will kill your engine in months.
Diesels are built for the worlwide market and made especially for boats for the commercial, sport and pro area. They have a seperate cooling circuit the same as in cars with antifreeze, the raw water is then sent through a heat exchanger to cool the seperate circuit.
The most IMPORTANT issue with petrol engines is safety, petrol boats are fitted with blowers, these blow the petrol fumes from the bilges to stop the potential of explosion. Remember that it is the vapour that can explode, not the petrol itself. I would never consider a LPG or petrol boat for this reason, the fumes are heavier than air and sit in the bilges, if you forget to blow it out or it builds up, BOOM. I know this because my job is a Fire Officer for West Sussex Fire and Rescue, I have seen this many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I discussed the economy he told me:

[ QUOTE ]
"Its simply amazing, I used just £10 going from Brighton to the Isle of Wight, around it then back! Due to red diesel only costing 39p per litre and the unbelievable economy!

It worked out to be MUCH cheaper than driving! I would think that the 3l diesel would cost 10x that for the same trip!

The other much more important point is that the petrol's use raw water to cool, this diesel engine has a heat exchanger system that means that no raw water enters the engine. Salt water is a killer on petrol engines, ask any boat owner that 'used' to own a petrol!

To be honest I have a number of viewings this week, I only advertised her last week, if you are interested then I would suggest viewing asap, these are very rare."

[/ QUOTE ]

This trip discussed is about 140 miles ! Several users on here said it was impossible and also queried where red is 39 p a litre. Several users suggest it is 45p with discount and generally around 50p. I pointed this out to him and he said:

[ QUOTE ]
"Fuel consumption depends on a number of factors....

WOT or wide open throttle is the maximum fuel use, remember that moving through water is hundreds of times harder than air, thus WOT uses 4 or 5 times the fuel as slow cruising.

When we use our boat we only cruise, we travelled from Shoreham by sea to Port Solent, then onto Alum bay and back to Shoreham. This was at about 5-20 mph and 33p per litre at Brighton marina. From what I can remember it was about £13 but could have been £15. 3600 RPM is 32 knots on my boat. RPM totally depends on prop selection.

If fuel consumption is such an issue then why are you even considering Petrol? It would be 4 or 5 fold the cost at the very least!

In my opinion the only people who will support Petrol boats are the ones that own them, most of those are trying to sell them and will tell you anything, especially in forums.

I have given you the full reasons why almost every boater in the UK if giving an unbiased answer will recommend Diesel, the balance is way too much against petrol, for every reason. Why don't you take a trip to a lifeboat station or a marina with eveyday boaters and ask them. Or another good idea would be to ask a mechanic, they service these boats everyday."

In other email discussions he also said :

I am happy to give you some advise, my boat is sought after so it will sell anyway /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif To be honest I have a number of viewings this week, I only advertised her last week, if you are interested then I would suggest viewing asap, these are very rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

His boat last week was up for £16,500. Today he has said:

[ QUOTE ]
"Also for your info we have decided to reduce the selling price to £14,995, considering the condition and spec. this is the lowest we are prepared to go. I have also added more photo's to the advert.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly there are a few issues here, last week it was so popular and sought after and he has viewings lined up. this week he has dropped £1,500 from the price ??

In one other e-mail when he was giving me advice he also said:

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing the boat is easy with 1 person, I do the same but I am on a slight gradient so it needs 2 people. The way round the launch and recovery is easy. When you launch or recover reverse the boat to safely near where you need it and apply the trailer brake. Get a rope (good strong one) and tie it onto the boat. Then you have 2 choices, either drive the car away 20ft or more (depending on if you have the room) attach the rope and lower the boat! Or... Without moving the car use a knot that will allow you to lower the boat into the water, IE 3 turns round the hitch will do. I find it so funny watching people 'dip' their cars into salt water when they should never have to! I have told this to countless people.

It is the gasses in the bilge that is the main cause of fires in boats, petrol and LPG are heavier than air and sit there waiting for an ignition source.

I have also thought of a couple more things for you, the first is make sure it is a UK trailer! USA trailers are illegal to use in the UK and are not designed for road use. The second is the boat, if you are buying an American boat make sure either that it is a UK spec boat or has been imported correctly and has been passed for CE use. USA boats have different specs to UK and must be adapted, there are loads on the market that are not CE approved or tested, insurance and also safety is an issue on non-ce boats and can lead to lack of insurance etc. If you buy a UK model it has been built to UK spec. If you get a boat from an approved UK importer it would have been adapted correctly and CE approved, private importers mostly do not do this. Another important thing is a VAT receipt, ensure that when you get a boat you get a VAT receipt, they are now getting very hot on imported boats not paying VAT if you do not have a valid VAT receipt for the original sale from new or import you could end up with a bill of 17.5% of the boats NEW value! This is a massive problem at present.

I bought my boat with good knowledge of boats and boating, it has all the good points I have mentioned as these were my wants from a boat.

Let me know if you would like to view or want more info."

[/ QUOTE ]

He also mentions that it has a report done in march 07. Not sure if this is normal. Would the buyer not normally instruct the survey? Maybe he is just tring to save time?

Is there any way to check what this boat is actually worth. With cars you can look in parkers price guide. Is there a boat equivalent?

What does everyone think ? Are there other questions I need to ask? One that comes to mind is i have not asked about running hours yet.

Thanks
Rich

 

[rickp]

[ QUOTE ]
He also mentions that it has a report done in march 07. Not sure if this is normal. Would the buyer not normally instruct the survey? Maybe he is just tring to save time?

[/ QUOTE ]

A survey commissioned by someone else is worthless to you. For a start, if there were any discrepancies or serious failings that were not mentioned in the survey, you would have zero comeback against the surveyor because it was not commissioned by you.

Rick

 

[Fire99]

Regarding the Petrol V Diesel dispute i think the guy is being more than simplistic about it...
The American market as he quite rightly says has alot of Petrol boats.. Infact as far as i know the majority of small to medium sized boats in the US are petrol and as quite rightly has been said if they were that dangerous then they wouldnt be sold in the country renowned for its compensation culture.

There are definitely downsides to petrol boats (i own one) like much lower availability of waterside petrol. The fact a petrol boat uses sparks in its ignition that doesnt like damp atmosphere much and the potential explosive effect. But i say potential.

On the positive side, petrol boats are generally significantly cheaper, their engines are often very simple in construction which means servicing a petrol engine can be relatively cheap and at low speed / tickover they can be exceptionally quiet.
My 1982 Petrol V8 sounds like an electric motor at idle. It is that smooth.

Even from a petrol boat owners perspective i would prefer diesel as my boat lives at a Marina so i have the refueling issue plus i would like to cruise further which suits the more frugal diesels better however i wouldnt just dismiss all petrol boats as useless time-bombs as that is very much untrue.

regards,

Nick

 

[Sneds]

My petrol boat has not yet exploded!
Diesel is good 'cos its cheap, 'till nov 2008 anyway.

 

[dpb]

A question this long deserves some kind of answer. The points that come to my mind are:
The only constructional difference between petrol and deisel boats is the engine itself and its associated components.
The full fresh water closed cooling system of a deisel can be fitted to most petrol boats except the 3.0L units where only the block can be cooled in this way. It is rarely fitted as standard to a petrol sports boat.
A raw water cooled engine kept in seawater will start to show symptoms after three years.
The safety issues, whilst a little overstated are essentially correct, however should not be a concern in a properly maintained and operated boat.
The deisel will be cheaper until the tax advantage disappears, and the economy will be better. Deisel engines have only become found in sports boats during the last few years but are becoming more common. You will not get the range of power options in small boats (up to 260hp and more from petrol) from deisel engines, usually only 120 hp.
The last quote paragraph is more or less reasonable.
It is I think unusual to have a report carried out on such a newish sports boat, you would in anycase want to have your own done.
The petrol equivalent boat will be cheaper to buy, and you will find more power on offer. The price does not strike me as widely excesive.
At the end of the day, take as you find and do not trust anyone who is talking about something they are trying to sell you. Hopefully someone who owns one of these will respond better than I.

 

[ian38_39]

Petrol engines are used mainly in America because petrol is cheap and due to the number of marine engines used over there petrol engines are cheaper to marinise, remember this is the biggest boat market in the world.
Petrol engines are about 30% less efficent than diesel but given that at present Petrol is twice the price of red diesel it is a huge difference but that will certainly reduce dramaticaly in November 2008 when the derogation ends.
As to safety America is about the most likely place in the world in which to be sued do you honestly think that if petrol boats were blowing up every five minutes they would continue or even be allowed to sell them.
Raw water cooling is used on diesels too and fresh water cooling can be found on or added to petrol just the same, it is true that engines dont like salt water but a flush with fresh water from the hose pipe every few uses will keep the corrosion at bay.
The biggest reason that most small bow riders and boats upto about 26' are petrol is weight, petrol engines are lighter and weight at the baclk of a small boat will make a huge difference, the ultra modern D3s and the like have improved the situation but more traditional deisels are heavy.
It is a buyers market at the moment largely due to the attrocious weather this summer so don't be fooled into thinking he has a chain of buyers, he certainly wouldn't be dropping the price if that was the case.
I run a petrol boat but there are pro's and cons for both, the big pro's are lack of smoke, quiter running and lack of vibration, as to con's well they do cost more to run and are relient on electrics which don't mix well with a damp environment but a small petrol boat will be a lot cheaper to buy and in the small first time buyer market the cheaper they are the easier they are to sell.

Ian

 

[Chris_d]

Gosh your seller has all the answers, ask him why is he selling it?

The petrol arguments are very over stated, most UK spec petrol motors are not raw water cooled, unless their outboards of course.

You are paying a premium for the diesel engine, at least 3-4k I would think, this premium might be eroded when red diesel goes in 2008, especialy on this style of boat. But it doesn't look like a bad deal, although I would look for a cuddy myself.

 

[landlockedpirate]

Everything the seller has said has a basis in truth, but like his claims for fuel economy, he is stretching the truth quite a lot. All of my boats have been petrol, non have blown up, non have fallen apart and resale has always been good. I would have prefered a diesel on some of them but the performance compromises were always too great.

Others have covered all his claims above. I think the boat he is selling is a decent boat at a decent price, I would be suspicious that he has had a survey done on such a new boat and would comission your own. If you like the boat and are happy with a bowrider and its frugal but less powerfull engine then go for it. I would suggest in this market £14000 is a fair offer, if he doesnt like it there are lots more boats for sale.

 

[nyx2k]

if i had 15k spare I'd be tempted as it looks a nice boat at a reasonable price.
must get your own survey though as 15k is still a large amount of money.
push him hard when you know if you want it and get another 1k off if you can. that boat will sit in his gargae until next spring so 14k in the bank now is good for him

 

[Solitaire]

I will say this once and once only - do not buy a bow rider of that size for use in UK coastal waters. Only yesterday I was doing a sea trial for a couple who bought a bow rider - a regal as it happens 4 months (and it was new) ago. They hate it! I can understand why. You would be better off looking for a small cuddy cabin boat or even look at the Karnic range.

Bow riders are bought by those new to boating - basically because of the perceived additional space. Get caught out in any kind of weather above a F2 and you will want to walk home.

 

[alt]

Hi again,
Just to let you know, there are PLENTY of these for sale. This *may* be snapped up quick, but there are plenty more for sale on boatsandoutboards.co.uk and boatshop24.co.uk

In summer 2006, I bought a 2004 Panther 19SC (Sports cuddy) for £17,500 after MUCH haggling. So while 15k is a good price IMHO, it's not a MUST HAVE deal. As I said, there's plenty more of them for sale so don't worry if that one does sell

 

[Pete7]

Rich, I fully concur with Solitaire, a bowrider will be very exposed and a cuddy or day cabin offer much more comfort.

Now I have to declare an interest because this belongs to a friend but this is superb, oh and its Brittish therefore designed for our seas with a good hull and strong layup.

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/ADT033/

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]

Now I have to declare an interest because this belongs to a friend but this is superb, oh and its Brittish therefore designed for our seas with a good hull and strong layup.



[/ QUOTE ]

I walk past that everyday - same yard as our office. I know what you mean - nice boat. Would even consider it myself - great hull.

 

[richrich123]

Thanks Pete & Niall,

Can you tell me, I appreciate a bowrider is exposed but Solitaire mentions them being a real problem in a force 2. How will an 18 foot cuddy be much different? Surely the 18 fot cuddy is a similar design / hull etc and whilst it offers a cuddy, the driver can't use it and the cuddy makes no difference if the boat is unstable in choppy water.

My worst case jurney would only be Portsmouth to IOW and I would not have any intention of doing this is bad weather as we want a boat as a hobby / days out. If the weather was particularly bad we would stick to a river / harbour or not go out.

Solitaire is saing bowriders should be avoided. Why do they seem so popular then? Every cmpany seems to sell them and this is the first person i have seen so far who has said steer clear.

If they are that bad I will avoid them as I don't want to regret spending 15k and really do appreciate all your advice and help.

I do want something that can cruise and at an economic cost hence interested in the 1.7dti and that can do a little watersports in summer months like pulling a ringo or banana. The wife also wants the space to lay out and sunbath in the few days of sunshine we have.

I can go upto 20 - 22k at most as well.

The boat pete 7 placed above - Shakespeare 650, this looks to me to be similar shape / size to the bowrider except the cuddy. I dont understand how this would be better i.e why this would be fine in force 2/3 but the bow rider would not.

Can some one please explain (sorry, please remember this is my first boat and design, engines, props etc are all new to me)

Thanks

 

[alt]

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/BEM375/

What about this? Same boat as I had, I loved it. I'm sure you could get the guy down to £15k if you had the cash upfront. That way you have a cuddy, which not only protects in rougher seas but can also get some sleep, or just a lot of waterproof storage. Actually for £15k id nearly buy that myself, could resell it and make a profit in Ireland

 

[richrich123]

I really appreciate all your advice and suggestions. i am going to the S'ton boat show next month for a few days and want to have an idea what i am talking about / need / want else I know the sales guys will be trying to see me everything down to akitchen sink.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Pete & Niall,


Solitaire is saing bowriders should be avoided. Why do they seem so popular then? Every cmpany seems to sell them and this is the first person i have seen so far who has said steer clear.

If they are that bad I will avoid them as I don't want to regret spending 15k and really do appreciate all your advice and help.



[/ QUOTE ]

Because I have taught on loads of them! Why are they popular - because they are bought by people who are buying their first boat and it's also why there are a lot on the market.

At the end of the day, it's your choice. But I hate the things and hate teaching on them as well. They are light, slammy and take on water. OK you say you are not going to go out if the weather is bad - very good idea anyway for a new beginner, but you will go out even less in a bow rider of that size in the Solent.

Sorry to be harsh but they are awful boats at the size you are talking about. They were designed to run on lakes in the US, not the short Solent chop.

 

[landlockedpirate]

Looks like he really wants to sell the boat, its just appeared on Ebay here .

The advice about bowriders is sound, cuddies have a higher freeboard and give more protection than the bowrider. Bowriders can also act like a huge scoop to pick up water in even quite small waves.The reason bowriders are popular is the price, a 17ft bowrider is nearly always the cheapest boat in an American boat companies range. We had a 17ft bowrider in the family, it could be a bit hairy even on an inland lake., but we happily took a 20ft cuddy accross the channel.

 

[Pete7]

Rich, I have spent most of my time zooming about in ribs, rather exposed to wind chill and spray, but wearing a full drysuit for diving who cares. However even in the summer the Solent can be cool at speed. Add spray from the Solent chop and you will quickly be looking for some protection if your out with the Mrs and friends for all but the calmest days.

Why are bowriders popular and lots about, well they are cheap mass produced in the US and shipped over hear in bulk for first time buyers. Many only have a medium V hull which whilst esily driven giving good fuel consumption struggle in waves and can be horrible in the Solent chop. This I should explain is often difficult to drive through at speed because with so many boats in the summer and the waves reflecting from the many shores is short little waves. A deep V hull either along the whole length or warped V will give a smoother ride and cut though giving much more comfort or at a higher speed. You wanted a something with a bit of get up and go didn't you. Would you ski behind a diesel boat, not mine you wouldn't turbo lag would make it difficult and the fumes horrible. Conversely our recently sold Sealine had over 200 hp V8 which went like a bat out of hell and accelerated very quickly if you wanted it. Fumes negible, oh and as for the 3 years thingy the seller mentioned, well the Sealine had the original 14 year old engine and still ran like a sewing machine when we sold her recently.

Don't forget cheap red diesel is finished Nov 08 so you will only get one season then expect road prices - although its still being debated.

Its a personal viewpoint but I think the Skakespear and the Fletcher will both be better build quality than the US boats, which will show later in life if you decide to change.

I would be happy to take the Shakespear across the channel.

Pete

 

[BrendanS]

Personally I wouldn't go for a bowrider for Solent or South Coast usage, however, the Regal 1800 hull is extremely good. Deep V at front, and stepped.

My larger Regal 2150, though essentially the same hull just bigger and heavier, has been cross channel and many other places with no problems