thinwater
Well-known member
Yes ... but that is not what ISO says. US influence? Or historic UK practice? Seriously, I'm curious.
Is there a standard IEC or other electrical code for European boats?
- Thread starter thinwater
- Start date
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
The IEC have no power as regards onboard electricity.
The ISO does not preclude the use of red and black for DC wiring, in fact, most of the DC wiring on UK and EU boats is red and black.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
What is it you think the ISO says that prevents the use of red and black wiring for DC circuits ?
As for AC, the ISO states:
— active (phase) conductors shall be black or brown;
— neutral conductors shall be white or light blue;
— protective conductors shall be green or green with a yellow stripe (see 6.1).
Personally, i would never use black for AC wiring, as the ISO also states that black or yellow should be used for DC negative, using black for both would be confusing.
wonkywinch
Well-known member
It goes back a lot further than that. We used red & black for the PSU +/- back in the 1960s
And a computer (PC) ATX PSU standard pinout ..
Last edited:
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
Crown Copyright, which is perpetual. Dealt with by HMSO or by delegated authorities (UKHO for charts)
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
Red live and black neutral or negative is a very ancient convention; when we moved to the family home I grew up in, when I was about 4 (1956), the house had to be rewired - it still had round pin sockets. I recall that even then red=live, black = neutral and green = earth. And I can't recall ever seeing anything but red and black for positive and negative on DC systems.
HughClayton
Member
Section 11.7 “Conductor identification” of IET Electrical Safety for Small Craft
11.7.2 DC Systems
a) DC positive conductors should be identified by red insulation;
b) DC negative conductors should be identified by black or yellow insulation; and
c) any earth conductor should be identified by green and yellow identification.
As a more general comment, across different industry sectors the cable colour identification for extra-low voltage dc circuits isn’t as standardised as it is for AC power.
Refueler
Well-known member
I have to agree as well ...
Low voltage DC is usually Red / Black ...
Many years ago as most of us know - UK along with Europe adopted the commonality of Brown +ve, Blue -ve, Yellow / Green striped for Earth. But DC and low voltage stayed Red +ve and Black -ve.
Something that I found out from Electricians here in EU where plugs are unmarked and withoutv fuses - when rewiring house etc... there is a precedent of putting +ve Brown lead to the RIGHT SIDE plug pin when looking towards the socket ... not something you see written down .... it became apparent also when we were setting up emergency generator as well ...
UK plugs of course are set with fuse to the right side in anyway - so its normal +ve.
DownWest
Well-known member
To add to that, in Iberia the AC mains plugs can be put in either way up, so the live at the connected unit can be swopped. Here in France, the earth pin in the socket is male, so the plug can only go in one way.
Refueler
Well-known member
That is one of the main errors of the EU and wherever the non polarised plug / socket is prevalent. We all know that AC is exactly that Alternating between the two pins in effect - but there is bias and that can lead to some interesting results.
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
I keep saying this, the IET is totally irrelevant when it comes to onboard electrics, they have no powers or jurisdiction whatsoever.
The only standards that apply to leisure boats are those set out in the ISOs i posted earlier and they only apply to new build boats. The ISO states that DC negative wiring should be black or yellow, as above, except where AC systems use black for neutral, in which case yellow must be used.
As far as DC positives, it states "Craft with AC and DC systems shall avoid the use of brown, white or light blue insulation colour in the
DC system, unless clearly separated from the AC conductors and identified as DC." The IET statement that all DC positive conductors should be red contradicts the ISO, which (again) is the only relevant standard in the UK and EU.
I always use brown, blue and green/yellow for all AC circuits, as per domestic installations. For DC i always use black for negative and mostly red for positives, but in some cases i use a few other colours (never brown, blue or green/yellow). This not only complies with the ISO, but instantly looks familiar to anyone else looking at the wiring.
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
Paul is there any legislation that makes it a legal requirement that all new build boats must comply with the ISO standards
Personal I have no issue with what you say and I used the colour coding you use for my wiring.
I did use wire numbering to identify individual DC wiring to help me with any fault tracing
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
It's a requirement for the EU RCD and UK RCR Roger.
Refueler
Well-known member
Of course don't forget BWA Inland ....
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
Thanks Paul and the EU RCD and UK RCR are legal requirement and I correct ?
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Yes, it's a requirement. Your boat would also have been required to conform with the RCD (if you built it in the EU, or wanted to import it, unless you didn't sell it for 5 years).
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
Hi Paul
The reason I ask these questions is that in our Copyright Act any thing of a legislative nature cannot be copyrighted.
os it there is a legal requirement to to comply with a published standard like British standards or our SABS (South African Bureau of standards ) . The standards should be available just like any legislation else a simple defence is that the Standard is not freely available.
With regard to legislation if it published in a Government Gazette that is freely available so no excuse to not know the requirements
The reason I ask these questions is that in our Copyright Act any thing of a legislative nature cannot be copyrighted.
os it there is a legal requirement to to comply with a published standard like British standards or our SABS (South African Bureau of standards ) . The standards should be available just like any legislation else a simple defence is that the Standard is not freely available.
With regard to legislation if it published in a Government Gazette that is freely available so no excuse to not know the requirements
HughClayton
Member
Paul,
The legal framework for non-commercial vessels is the Recreational Craft Directive to which boat builders must self-certify adherence to prior to first placing a boat on the market and the onus is on the boat builder to document haw they are meeting the RCD requirements. One means of demonstrating compliance is to adhere several of the relevant harmonised BS EN ISO standards and several bodies, including the IET and British Marine provide guides on best practice and adherence to standards. So the guides are not "totally irrelevant" but are useful practitioner's guides and, if the RCD self-certification were ever to be challenged then demonstrating that either of these guides had been followed is likely to be compelling.
The IET gives "the following recommendations are considered good practice .......... it is normal practice for the following colours to be used ....... DC positive conductors should be identified by red insulation"
Have a great day
Hugh
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
You must be in the USA. Elsewhere, copyright is a right and cannot NOT exist, except by timing out 70 years after the death of the author - and even then it can be extended under exceptional circumstances (I think Barrymore's copyright on Peter Pan was extended because it had been left to the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital in his will).
Government material in the UK is subject to Crown Copyright, which is perpetual. They release some material under terms like those of Creative Commons, but copyright still exists.
As a former government employee, I note that we avoided our products being Crown Copyright because it was a pain in the neck having to refer people to another agency to gain reproduction rights for our material! And nothing we produced was likely to be of anything but historical interest more than a few years after publication.
thinwater
Well-known member
This is what I find when I search IEC DC color codes DC. PLEASE show me an authoritative link that shows that the current IEC is different. Yes, the 23-year old link that was shared is different from below, but that was 23 years ago. There are multiple links showing that the IEC AC code color changed in 2004-14 (I saw two different dates). Is it possible (likely) the IEC DC code changed as well , and that adoption has been slow in the UK and that older gear still (obviously) uses the older code?
The ISO 10133 link to DC small boat wiring has been withdrawn, and is now incorporated into ISO 13297:2020, but I don't have a copy. It may be harmonized with IEC (below), but I read a UK article about the current BS standard 7671that seems to use the older color code. Ths may be an EU/UK thing?
FYI, NEC is USA. This is still current, though ABYC is different (but voluntary). ABYC L- is yellow.
Without a current ISO and IEC link, this thread is probably about nothing.
Here, DC table a page down.
and article about the AC change.
The change occurred in 2014. Maybe we missed this.
T
The ISO 10133 link to DC small boat wiring has been withdrawn, and is now incorporated into ISO 13297:2020, but I don't have a copy. It may be harmonized with IEC (below), but I read a UK article about the current BS standard 7671that seems to use the older color code. Ths may be an EU/UK thing?
FYI, NEC is USA. This is still current, though ABYC is different (but voluntary). ABYC L- is yellow.
Without a current ISO and IEC link, this thread is probably about nothing.
Here, DC table a page down.
and article about the AC change.
The change occurred in 2014. Maybe we missed this.
T
Last edited: