Is there a standard IEC or other electrical code for European boats?

[Aja]

You must be in the USA. Elsewhere, copyright is a right and cannot NOT exist, except by timing out 70 years after the death of the author - and even then it can be extended under exceptional circumstances (I think Barrymore's copyright on Peter Pan was extended because it had been left to the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital in his will).

Government material in the UK is subject to Crown Copyright, which is perpetual. They release some material under terms like those of Creative Commons, but copyright still exists.

As a former government employee, I note that we avoided our products being Crown Copyright because it was a pain in the neck having to refer people to another agency to gain reproduction rights for our material! And nothing we produced was likely to be of anything but historical interest more than a few years after publication.

I know you meant JM Barrie. Damn autocorrect.....

 

[thinwater]

You must be in the USA. Elsewhere, copyright is a right and cannot NOT exist, except by timing out 70 years after the death of the author - and even then it can be extended under exceptional circumstances (I think Barrymore's copyright on Peter Pan was extended because it had been left to the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital in his will).

Government material in the UK is subject to Crown Copyright, which is perpetual. They release some material under terms like those of Creative Commons, but copyright still exists.

As a former government employee, I note that we avoided our products being Crown Copyright because it was a pain in the neck having to refer people to another agency to gain reproduction rights for our material! And nothing we produced was likely to be of anything but historical interest more than a few years after publication.

The rule in the US is the same. Copyrights are very durable and lack of access is no defense. It's a rub, but it is what it is.

 

[rogerthebodger]

You must be in the USA. Elsewhere, copyright is a right and cannot NOT exist, except by timing out 70 years after the death of the author - and even then it can be extended under exceptional circumstances (I think Barrymore's copyright on Peter Pan was extended because it had been left to the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital in his will).

I actually live in South Africa and out copyright Act as amended to include computer programs is Act 98 of 1978 and has a penalty of a fine of R 5 000 about 200 GBP of 6 months in prison this is per offence so not much of a fine.

The main issue is a civil case where losses if any can be awarded by the courts

The rub hear is this is only worthwhile if the owner has lost significant income

I know this as I used to right computer software and rent it to people for their use. Competitors would try to copy my software and try to sell to other users

I had to add very complicated copy protection mechanisms to stop this practice as to take civil action was not cost effective

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul,

The legal framework for non-commercial vessels is the Recreational Craft Directive to which boat builders must self-certify adherence to prior to first placing a boat on the market and the onus is on the boat builder to document haw they are meeting the RCD requirements. One means of demonstrating compliance is to adhere several of the relevant harmonised BS EN ISO standards and several bodies, including the IET and British Marine provide guides on best practice and adherence to standards. So the guides are not "totally irrelevant" but are useful practitioner's guides and, if the RCD self-certification were ever to be challenged then demonstrating that either of these guides had been followed is likely to be compelling.

The IET gives "the following recommendations are considered good practice .......... it is normal practice for the following colours to be used ....... DC positive conductors should be identified by red insulation"

Have a great day

Hugh

This is totally incorrect and i'm getting seriously fed up with posting the same corrections in this thread.

The IET has nothing to do with boat wiring and Brithish Marine is just a trade body, also nothing to do with legislation or requirements to comply with the RCD.

The RCD is a EU directive that requires builders to follow the standards as set out in the ISOs, to suggest that the IET or British Marine have any say in that is ridiculous.

 

[PaulRainbow]

This is what I find when I search IEC DC color codes DC. PLEASE show me an authoritative link that shows that the current IEC is different. Yes, the 23-year old link that was shared is different from below, but that was 23 years ago. There are multiple links showing that the IEC AC code color changed in 2004-14 (I saw two different dates). Is it possible (likely) the IEC DC code changed as well , and that adoption has been slow in the UK and that older gear still (obviously) uses the older code?

The ISO 10133 link to DC small boat wiring has been withdrawn, and is now incorporated into ISO 13297:2020, but I don't have a copy. It may be harmonized with IEC (below), but I read a UK article about the current BS standard 7671that seems to use the older color code. Ths may be an EU/UK thing?

FYI, NEC is USA. This is still current, though ABYC is different (but voluntary). ABYC L- is yellow.

Without a current ISO and IEC link, this thread is probably about nothing.

Like others, you still miss the point, the IEC has nothing to do with marine electrics. Those NEC/IEC colour tables have nothing to do with marine electrics, the only official standards are contained in the ISOs and relate to the RCD and RCR.

You will not, as far as i am aware, find an online copy of the current ISO, although i have posted extracts in this thread.

From the DC section:

18.5 All DC negative conductors shall be identified by black or yellow insulation. If the craft is equipped
with an AC electrical system which use black insulation for live conductors, yellow insulation shall be
used for DC negative conductors of the DC system. Black or yellow insulation shall not be used for DC
positive conductors.
18.6 Means of identification other than insulation colour for DC negative conductors if the craft is fitted
with multiple independent DC systems is permitted if properly identified on the conductor and craft
wiring diagrams of the electrical system(s).
NOTE 1 A colour stripe can be added to conductor insulation for identification in the system.
Craft with AC and DC systems shall avoid the use of brown, white or light blue insulation colour in the
DC system, unless clearly separated from the AC conductors and identified as DC.

From the AC section:
19.4 Active (phase) and neutral conductors of the AC system shall be identified. Identification can be
made by insulation colour as defined below, by numbering or by other means on the wiring diagram for
the system supplied with the craft. For single-phase systems:
— active (phase) conductors shall be black or brown;
— neutral conductors shall be white or light blue;
— protective conductors shall be green or green with a yellow stripe (see 6.1).
NOTE A coloured stripe can be added to active (phase) and neutral conductor insulations for identification
in the system.
Yellow, green or green with a yellow stripe insulation colour shall not be used for active (phase) or
neutral conductors of the AC system.

Those extracts are complete, as regards identifying the cables.

 

[thinwater]

Section 11.7 “Conductor identification” of IET Electrical Safety for Small Craft

11.7.2 DC Systems

a) DC positive conductors should be identified by red insulation;
b) DC negative conductors should be identified by black or yellow insulation; and
c) any earth conductor should be identified by green and yellow identification.

As a more general comment, across different industry sectors the cable colour identification for extra-low voltage dc circuits isn’t as standardised as it is for AC power.

This 2004 EIT document says brown and grey. Same as IEC. I hear what people are saying, but I'm not seeing anyone posting a link. Paul Rainbow's quote re. ISO, I believe, is correct. Interesting disconnect between ISO and IEC for 12 V. There is a similar disconnect in the US. RVs are also different from autos.

Sounds like a lot of turf wars. I've been on standards committees for other things, I get it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

This 2004 EIT document says brown and grey. Same as IEC. I hear what people are saying, but I'm not seeing anyone posting a link.

View attachment 169691

Those colours are expressly forbidden in the ISO, you are, once again, quoting standards for domestic/commercial land based installations, nothing to do with marine systems.

You cannot use brown or blue in onboard DC systems.

EDIT. That should really read "Should not" rather than "cannot", as per note (1) above. I personally avoid using AC colours in DC circuits.

 

[thinwater]

Those colours are expressly forbidden in the ISO, you are, once again, quoting standards for domestic/commercial land based installations, nothing to do with marine systems.

You cannot use brown or blue in onboard DC system

I understand. We have the same difference in US standards (ABYC). I was trying to get someone to explain the conflict between IEC and ISO. I have received gear (pump) from UK chandlers that had brown and blue pigtails. Thus the question.

The same thing happens in the US if you order RV parts. The difference is that I grew up with that conflict.

I also find it strange with all of that "harmonization" that the land and marine systems need to be different. Silly. The land code should recognize the conflict too. In the US too.

And thanks for identifying the extracts as current ISO. A lot gets posted without designation of source, which makes a lot of it ... suspect when we know that some aspects have changed.

 

[rogerthebodger]

An EU "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that EU countries must achieve. However, it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws on how to reach these goals.

So I would what the EU do is an EU country did not devise their own laws to this effect and if a local law was devised if a boat builder did not comply what would happen

As the UK is now not a member of the EU is their UK legislation with this regard and again if a boat buder did not comply what would the UK do about this

Hoving directives and laws is one thing but without enforcement these directives and laws are useless.

 

[thinwater]

My original question, why I started the thread, was to learn if there was a more comprehensive color code in use, similar in function to ABYC (see first post graphic). The answer, I am pretty sure, is NO. Not sayin' it's needed or all that helpful. Some must have thought it was needed.

OK, that's what I wanted to know.

 

[dunedin]

My original question, why I started the thread, was to learn if there was a more comprehensive color code in use, similar in function to ABYC (see first post graphic). The answer, I am pretty sure, is NO. Not sayin' it's needed or all that helpful. Some must have thought it was needed.

OK, that's what I wanted to know.

And there probably never will be another "standard" like that, as very specific / rigid / ancient in terms of components listed.

The direction of travel is towards common wiring shared across components and using CAN bus style switching to power on / off the relevant device.

 

[ean_p]

An EU "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that EU countries must achieve. However, it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws on how to reach these goals.

So I would what the EU do is an EU country did not devise their own laws to this effect and if a local law was devised if a boat builder did not comply what would happen

As the UK is now not a member of the EU is their UK legislation with this regard and again if a boat buder did not comply what would the UK do about this

Hoving directives and laws is one thing but without enforcement these directives and laws are useless.

I think ( and may well be wrong!) that there is no legal requirement to make something that meets the RCD, but failure to do so means that it can't be offered for sale on the market in Europe ( well at least not for a certain length of time at any rate I think).
The RCD states that for matters technical it recognises the standards approved by CEN/CENELEC and a build that follows those standards is deemed to meet the requirements of the RCD. ISO 13297 was I think drawn up by committee T188 of the CEN/CENELEC ( the small boat committee) and taken on board by the ISO as their standard EN ISO 13297 and I think its also know in the UK as BS EN ISO 13297. Therefore if you build to that standard you build to meet the RCD.

 

[HughClayton]

This is totally incorrect and i'm getting seriously fed up with posting the same corrections in this thread.

The IET has nothing to do with boat wiring and Brithish Marine is just a trade body, also nothing to do with legislation or requirements to comply with the RCD.

The RCD is a EU directive that requires builders to follow the standards as set out in the ISOs, to suggest that the IET or British Marine have any say in that is ridiculous.

This is totally incorrect and i'm getting seriously fed up with posting the same corrections in this thread.

The IET has nothing to do with boat wiring and Brithish Marine is just a trade body, also nothing to do with legislation or requirements to comply with the RCD.

The RCD is a EU directive that requires builders to follow the standards as set out in the ISOs, to suggest that the IET or British Marine have any say in that is ridiculous.

Paul

It appears that we have different understanding of how the the builders of recreational craft choose to meet the requirements of the RCD and the role expert committees play in providing guidance.

I’m not going to engage in an online debate about something as boring as this but I just wanted to put on record that I disagree with your description of my post as “totally incorrect”. This forum is meant to be about sharing information and helping people with information.

Seasons greetings

 

[B27]

ABYC is common in the US ... when it is followed.

I do know the basic IEC and Chinese standards, but is there a specific ISO-like ABYC? I've searched and searched, but maybe I have US focused search engine.
(just to make it fun in the US, cars and RVs both follow a different codes)

Dunno about the insulation, but the wire is the wrong colour metal...

I've never found it very helpful to assume any car, motorbike or boat has wiring adhering rigidly to some committee standard.

 

[Refueler]

Dunno about the insulation, but the wire is the wrong colour metal...

I've never found it very helpful to assume any car, motorbike or boat has wiring adhering rigidly to some committee standard.

First thing I do is out with DVM ....

 

[PaulRainbow]

An EU "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that EU countries must achieve. However, it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws on how to reach these goals.

So I would what the EU do is an EU country did not devise their own laws to this effect and if a local law was devised if a boat builder did not comply what would happen

As the UK is now not a member of the EU is their UK legislation with this regard and again if a boat buder did not comply what would the UK do about this

Hoving directives and laws is one thing but without enforcement these directives and laws are useless.

If a builder wants to sell a boat in the EU it must be CE certified and comply with the RCD, which means building to the ISO standards. Not sure if a EU member state can invent their own rules for such a directive, but if they did/could they would not be allowed to seel those boats within the EU. Nothing to stop them from selling them outside the EU i suppose, but would be a bit silly.

Now that the UK is no longer part of the EU we don't have to comply with the CE/RCD, but if a UK builder wants to export to the EU, their boats would need to comply with those standards, the same as other non-EU countries always have. The UK has created the RCR (our equivalent to the RCD), which UK builders must comply with, as must any other country who wants to export boats to the UK. However, the standards for the RCR are exactly the same as the RCD, so any builder complying with one standard will automatically comply with the other, subject to some paper shuffling.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Dunno about the insulation, but the wire is the wrong colour metal...

I've never found it very helpful to assume any car, motorbike or boat has wiring adhering rigidly to some committee standard.

Who cares what colour the ABYC chart is, it doesn't apply to the UK or EU.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I understand. We have the same difference in US standards (ABYC). I was trying to get someone to explain the conflict between IEC and ISO. I have received gear (pump) from UK chandlers that had brown and blue pigtails. Thus the question.

The same thing happens in the US if you order RV parts. The difference is that I grew up with that conflict.

I also find it strange with all of that "harmonization" that the land and marine systems need to be different. Silly. The land code should recognize the conflict too. In the US too.

And thanks for identifying the extracts as current ISO. A lot gets posted without designation of source, which makes a lot of it ... suspect when we know that some aspects have changed.

My pleasure, hope it's helped a little.

 

[Refueler]

An EU "directive" is a legislative act that sets out a goal that EU countries must achieve. However, it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws on how to reach these goals.

So I would what the EU do is an EU country did not devise their own laws to this effect and if a local law was devised if a boat builder did not comply what would happen

As the UK is now not a member of the EU is their UK legislation with this regard and again if a boat buder did not comply what would the UK do about this

Hoving directives and laws is one thing but without enforcement these directives and laws are useless.

The EU directives ... DIRECTIVES ... are issued as minimum standards to be followed .....

Each state has the individual choice to Ignore (not a wise choice) .. use as their rules (actually not so common as expected) ... or exceed them (common practice ... ).

As regards UK ... often UK during EU membership adhered closer to EU rules than any other member - particularly when comparing to France / Germany ... and those standards are still actually in place as UK was stricter with UK rules than EU ...

 

[rogerthebodger]

Again my question is what if a country or a boat builder does not comply with the directive.

It is said that they must comply to sell their boat but again what will the authorities do to the boat builder of the new owner of the boat if the builder / boat do not comply with the RCD / EU directive / country laws

What action will be taken by those enforcing the EU requirements