Is there a modern equivalant to the Nicholson 32

[Robin]

In my view, there's no meaningful relationship between weight and strength. A better measure of strength is required if comparisons are to be made.

WRT performance. Low freeboard long keelers are only faster than AWB's upwind in a blow. Off the wind the AWB still wins by a country mile. So is it a good idea to have a boat optimized for upwind sailing in a blow at the expense of everything else? I know what my answer is.

Our 1988 Jeanneau hull, like many in their range then, was laid up throughout with a layer of Kevlar for stiffness and strength. By comparison some Co32s for example suffered stress cracking and had to have additional stiffening added in the forward areas to prevent the hull flexing over a bulkhead and causing this, later ones were modified. Thick and heavy was used in the absence back then of design engineering knowledge with the new grp material.

Slamming is caused by three things mainly, the hull shape forwards, boatspeed and pointing angle upwind. Older designs had deeper forefoots (forefeet??) newer ones have shallower and flatter ones, but it is worth noting that this is true of most modern designs not just so called AWBs. Speed is certainly a factor, slow down to old style pace upwind or bear away to their upwind best angle and a lot of slamming will vanish!

I disagree in the generalisation that a long keeler will beat an AWB upwind in a blow because not all AWBs are the same, as indeed nor are all older designs the same. Some AWBs will be more performance orientated and some traditional designs may see a beam reach as 'going upwind' in a blow. Better to compare individual designs rather than general categories.

 

[GlennG]

I'm not really saying that modern boats are bad, I'm personally having a go at the cheap modern boats; the lightweight ones with small fittings (=cheap) with the caravan design to maximise space at the cost of seaworthiness, lack of stowage space, crazy galleys that aren't much cop in a sea, not to mention big wide cockpits, lack of trimming abilities, etc.

The only way I've ever known to stop the slamming in modern boats is to stay in the marina if the sea's up. Is that what you meant? BTW, when they slam, they do tend to kick up spray.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

There's a reason a Contessa 32 rates something like 15% slower than an Elan 333.

Never sailed either of those upwind in a gale but I have sailed a Nic 32 and various Bavs in a wide range of conditions. There's no doubt in my mind that with such low freeboard the Nic 32 could make some kind of progress under sail upwind in conditions where in the Bav I'd give up and put the motor on and keep the nose direct into it. (Or course, the cost of that was that the Nic would go under as many waves as it would go over so the cost of progress is a soaking.)

Even so, is it really a good idea to have a boat optimized for upwind sailing in a blow at the expense of everything else? I know what my answer is.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I disagree in the generalisation that a long keeler will beat an AWB upwind in a blow because not all AWBs are the same, as indeed nor are all older designs the same.

True, but I still think the generalization is broadly true.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

not to mention big wide cockpits,

Big wide arse = fast surfing downwind.

 

[Lady Campanula]

I noticed a Nich 32 for sale, yesterday, in the boatyard at Bristol Marina. It belongs, apparently, to the owner of W F Price - Chart Agents and appears to be receiving a new engine, new cutless bearing and assembly, and some other smart 'fettling' work.

 

[flaming]

I'm not really saying that modern boats are bad, I'm personally having a go at the cheap modern boats; the lightweight ones with small fittings (=cheap) with the caravan design to maximise space at the cost of seaworthiness, lack of stowage space, crazy galleys that aren't much cop in a sea, not to mention big wide cockpits, lack of trimming abilities, etc.

QUOTE]


But then you're not comparing like with like. The contessas, Sigmas, Nic's etc were cruiser racers, and should be compared with modern cruiser racers.

The boats you're describing above are really a modern version of what Westerly etc introduced to this country, the mass produced pure cruising boat. Which is a very different animal.
And like anything they're designed to appeal to their customer base. You don't like them = you're not their customer base, look elsewhere.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

But then you're not comparing like with like. The contessas, Sigmas, Nic's etc were cruiser racers, and should be compared with modern cruiser racers.

Hang on. A Sigma isn't an MAB. It's an early AWB. Fin keel and everything.

 

[GlennG]

But then you're not comparing like with like. The contessas, Sigmas, Nic's etc were cruiser racers, and should be compared with modern cruiser racers.

Very true. Interesting to compare Contessas, Sigmas, Nics, etc. with modern J or X boats

But the Contessa's legendary AVS and stability curves will still stand her out from most if not all modern boats. Strange that she likes to sail at crazy angles with her toe-rail in the water

 

[Tranona]

The thing we forget about our early heroes is that they did not have the choice that we have now. They used the boats they did because that is what was available. Some, like Hiscock had boats designed for them which were considered quite avant garde at the time, but are now thought of as traditional.

So in some ways the connection between "seaworthiness" and old heavy long keel designs is as much association as cause and effect - as there is plenty of evidence that the two are not uniquely synonymous. In fact the (arguably) most successful "bluewater" cruiser in terms of the number which have successfully circumnavigated is the very antithesis of that design philosophy - that is the shallow draft hard chine 31 ft Golden Hind.

Having set off the stability hare, I avoided saying I think my Bavaria as a structure would probably survive severe weather pretty well - but don't think I would - or have the desire ever to get near finding out. Equally, I would be just as happy (or unhappy!) in such a situation with my Eventide 26.

As I tried to say earlier in this thread, it is materials more than anything that affects the shape of boats. You simply could not build today's shapes in traditional timber, and once past that short transitional period to GRP designers quite quickly abandoned shapes that were the consequence of the material previously used.

Thousands of people sail happily all over the world in all kinds of boats without drowning or their boats falling apart. This simply would not be the case if that one narrow design philosophy prevailed.

As usual it is the market that decides. People who have "new boat" money don't want boats like that - and not because they are not on offer, There have been more than enough attempts to re-introduce them over the years, and despite the actual numbers on the market being very low, used ones still do not attract any significant premium over more modern designs of similar size and age. This is really good news for people who want such a boat because they can indulge at a price that is a tiny fraction of replacement cost - if they can find one in good condition!

 

[flaming]

Hang on. A Sigma isn't an MAB. It's an early AWB. Fin keel and everything.

Splitting hairs. My point is that the performance of boats has improved over the years, and is still improving.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Splitting hairs. My point is that the performance of boats has improved over the years, and is still improving.

I'm in 100 per cent agreement with your point, but I will not tolerate seeing the poor old Sigma languishing in a list of smeggy old MABs. (Allbeit a list of smeggy old MABS that I have a high degree of respect and regard for.)

 

[Robin]

Very true. Interesting to compare Contessas, Sigmas, Nics, etc. with modern J or X boats

But the Contessa's legendary AVS and stability curves will still stand her out from most if not all modern boats. Strange that she likes to sail at crazy angles with her toe-rail in the water

Ah ha, AVS or sailing by numbers, fact is that boats sail in water and not on spreadsheets! After Fastnet '79 tank tests proved that it is the seastate that causes capsizes not wind strength and more importantly that ANY boat can be rolled when it's size relative to the wave size and wave length encountered is wrong, regardless of AVS.

 

[doug748]

Splitting hairs. My point is that the performance of boats has improved over the years, and is still improving.

Speed may have improved but the original poster is clearly not interested in that aspect of performance, or accommodation for that matter.

What really gets up my nose are the wheedling, windbag comments from folk that cannot accept someone wanting a different boat to themselves. They often have a second line of attack in definitive knowledge of the best boat, usually the one they own, or regret selling.
There is regular evidence of this from both ends of the spectrum.

I, of course, absolve you from the above flaming, your comments having been moderate throughout.

 

[flaming]

Ah ha, AVS or sailing by numbers, fact is that boats sail in water and not on spreadsheets! After Fastnet '79 tank tests proved that it is the seastate that causes capsizes not wind strength and more importantly that ANY boat can be rolled when it's size relative to the wave size and wave length encountered is wrong, regardless of AVS.

Very true. However, AVS is more about how likely the boat is come back up again.

 

[flaming]

Speed may have improved but the original poster is clearly not interested in that aspect of performance, or accommodation for that matter.

I think we'd got quite far from the OP at that point, and had people claiming that older boats are faster, especially upwind in a blow. I was merely pointing out that this is not always the case, and there is a whole generation of new boats that have the same design brief (i.e cruiser racer) that the Contessa/Nic etc had, and wondering why people think they wouldn't be significantly faster.

I, of course, absolve you from the above flaming, your comments having been moderate throughout.

Very kind of you to say so!

 

[Robin]

Very true. However, AVS is more about how likely the boat is come back up again.

Yes of course, but making it likely to not stay wrong way up is largely a question of the above deck design and buoyancy making it unstable upside down, ie avoid large flush decks and shallow coachroofs. The reason why the most interesting part of the AVS curve is the bit below the line..

 

[Tranona]

Very true. However, AVS is more about how likely the boat is come back up again.

Depends on whether you are talking about the actual angle or the shape of the curve - particularly the comparison of the area above the point and that below.

However, not sure that stability per se is at the heart of the argument. Seems to me that one of the key differentiators that people emphasise when advocating older style heavier boats is the ability to carry their canvas and make progress in heavier weather. Comments like "when the wind gets up she just leans a bit more and ploughs on" compared with "in a gust they seem to round up easily....".

Looking at the extremes of behaviour is not really helpful for most of us - it is looking at how the boat performs in the type of use we make of it. When I started sailing 40 years ago, something like a Nic 32 would be seen as the pinnacle of cruising yachts - because it was compared with what else was on offer - just as an Alvis TD21 was the pinnacle (or one of them) of gentleman's sporting saloons. But the world moves on and although the Alvis has a cetain amount of charm, who would buy one for everyday functional use - even if they were 25% price of a new Audi A5?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Nah, you wouldn't want an Audi A5. There's not sitting headroom* in the backseat. And you certainly couldn't wear your bowler.

*Actually, there's not, unless you have difficulty fetching things from the top shelf in the newsagent.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Seems to me that one of the key differentiators that people emphasise when advocating older style heavier boats is the ability to carry their canvas and make progress in heavier weather.

I think in reality 90 per cent of it is freeboard. Old designs had sod all freeboard so with tiny amounts of sail up they could still make progress. Many AWBs have loads of freeboard so when really reefed down are presenting a large amount of hull area to the wind relative to sail area and stopping themselves dead. Plenty of exceptions, of course, but IMHO broadly true.