Is there a modern equivalant to the Nicholson 32

[GlennG]

What sort of sailing do you want to do?

It's well known that all boats are a compromise, some more than others. It's just what are you prepared to compromise?

I have a Contessa 32 which I love dearly. However she's too small for longer term living, particularly outside of a marina where the lack of a shower, decent water tanks, hot running water and lack of living space become a real drawback. On the other hand, she's a fantastic sea boat that's fast and easily single-handed or short-handed in all conditions and a dream to manoeuvre short-handed in port when the long fin comes into its own.

I have even looked on enviously at 32' AWB jelly mould boats in the marinas with all their mod cons. That's until they cast off when they're a complete joke - their high topsides and tiny keels mean they sail sideways as well as forwards, lousy sea-keeping, reefing in any wind, tiddly winches and lines, wide cockpits, slamming, broaching... ugh.

There are heavier boats available that are a little bigger inside, although a lot of them are much slower. I'd recommend a Westerly Storm 33 as fitting your requirements.

 

[flaming]

What sort of sailing do you want to do?

It's well known that all boats are a compromise, some more than others. It's just what are you prepared to compromise?

Very true.

I find it interesting that the OP specified a list of design requirements, rather than outcome requirements. This suggests that the OP already knows that these features will generate the characteristics that he is looking for from a boat, but this does rather leave the progression of boat design rather, well, slow.

All of the boats mentioned strike my personal tastes as heavy and undercanvassed, but if that's the brief....

 

[BurnitBlue]

What sort of sailing do you want to do?

Fair question, but I see this question a lot and I don't buy into the argument that a boat should be designed and built for a single specific purpose unless that purpose is to survive anything the sea can throw at her (within reason). Racing is a special case if the whole object is to win. Flaming is right. One look at my desired specs and it can be assumed that I don't want to be "drownded".

You have a Co32. From replies on this thread I had struck that boat off my shortlist. From your reply I may put it back. Thanks for the insight. I was in Gedser Southern Denmark during the summer and it was disturbing to see experienced boating people really making a complete mess up of mooring in the marina. Strong wind, no current, and the majority ended up trapped across the pilings. High freeboard centre cockpit flimsy light-weight boats that behaved like blown leaves in the carpark.

 

[BurnitBlue]

The keel stepped ones only real advantage IMO is that they transfer the rig loads directly to the keel and that frees the designer from the need to place either internal bulkheads or support struts in the cabin where they might not be convenient to the layout otherwise, this is rarely a real problem as most boats will need a main bulkhead in about the right place anyway. Tuning keel stepped rigs is more difficult as there is a secondary contact point where the mast passes through the deck and where wedges (rubber spacers) are needed. Then any water entering the mast via halyard entries and exits or even the mainsail track inevitably finds it's way below into the bilges and that assumes a perfect seal at the mast coat on the deck opening which will need replacing periodically. Mast removal and re-stepping is more complicated and the mast is heavier, there is no possibility of doing it without a crane lift. There is also a tendency for the base of a keel stepped mast to corrode where it sits in a pool of salty bilge water. Finally, mast storage is more of a problem ashore because of the extra length and carrying it on deck as in perhaps going through the canals to the Med would be harder.

Thanks for that Robin. Excellent point about the corrosion at the base of a keel stepped mast. I have actually seen a boat that had two inches sawn off the base and the mast raised on a wooden plinth to use the same rigging. Forgot about that point.

I will also take another scoot round the brokers and Apollo Duck for the Westerly W33 range. This is not a big shift in my outlook because I have been inspecting W33's and Conways before I homed in on the Nic 32.

This boat buying business is not easy these days. I reckon it is because of the incredible choice that the Internet gives a guy straight to his armchair. In the past one went with what was available locally and got on the bike to view.

 

[Robin]

Thanks for that Robin. Excellent point about the corrosion at the base of a keel stepped mast. I have actually seen a boat that had two inches sawn off the base and the mast raised on a wooden plinth to use the same rigging. Forgot about that point.

I will also take another scoot round the brokers and Apollo Duck for the Westerly W33 range. This is not a big shift in my outlook because I have been inspecting W33's and Conways before I homed in on the Nic 32.

This boat buying business is not easy these days. I reckon it is because of the incredible choice that the Internet gives a guy straight to his armchair. In the past one went with what was available locally and got on the bike to view.

Our next buy is a trawler style displacement motor yacht to live aboard in the southern Chesapeake Bay, USA, probably a Defever 48 or Defever 49 with current thinking. We are therefore searching Yachtworld USA with a whole new set of parameters outside of our 40 years of sailboat knowledge! Now have to ask questions about washer/dryers, aircon or active stabiliser fins versus paravane birds, fuel polishing etc, let alone wondering how 26 tonnes of high freeboard but 5ft draft handles and do we need bow and stern thrusters as well as the twin engines as we are just two wrinklies...

 

[Whitty]

only one tradewind 33

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

of the same era as the C32 of similar design, but with a little more space....
http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/97024/

 

[flaming]

Flaming is right.

Sorry, I just had a childish desire to quote that......!

One look at my desired specs and it can be assumed that I don't want to be "drownded".

Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, and seem to have made your mind up about "modern" boats, but I would make the point that classifying the entire output of modern yards as the "Jelly mould boats" you so clearly dislike, does a serious mis-service to the likes of X, Arcona, Fingulf, etc. Even Dufour and Elan's performance ranges would have the right to be a little huffy at your dismissal!

Fact is that these boats are influenced by the current racing rule (IRC) in the same way that the older boats such as many mentioned in this thread were influenced by IOR. Difference being that where IOR encouraged odd shapes, tiny mainsails etc, IRC encourages some seriously seaworthy boats, especially in the smaller sizes. These boats have Ballast ratios up near the 50% mark, and with their low CG keels, and decent form stability too, they're a hell of a lot stiffer than their older cousins. This makes them comfortable and fast in a blow, AND with more accomodation. Then turn them downwind and the hull design makes them a LOT faster and easier to helm.

Different breed to the modern cruisers!

 

[doug748]

I hate to say I told you so, but you seem to be abandoning some of your key chosen features.
Keel stepped masts are a bit of a pain and I don't think they can be justified for the sort of coastal pottering that most of us go in for. It means a longer spar (problems if you want to carry it on deck), more expense, difficulties with cranes and some stuggle with the mast/deck seal. If I were planning to cross the Atlantic I might feel differently.

Encapsulated keels are a different matter. They are expensive which is the key reason they are not more common. Builders find it much more convenient to bolt on an iron casting and leave you with the problem of it falling off (uncommon) coming loose (more frequent) leaking (not unknown), rusting (always) and generally being a moot point when it comes to selling.

 

[Robin]

I hate to say I told you so, but you seem to be abandoning some of your key chosen features.
Keel stepped masts are a bit of a pain and I don't think they can be justified for the sort of coastal pottering that most of us go in for. It means a longer spar (problems if you want to carry it on deck), more expense, difficulties with cranes and some stuggle with the mast/deck seal. If I were planning to cross the Atlantic I might feel differently.

Encapsulated keels are a different matter. They are expensive which is the key reason they are not more common. Builders find it much more convienient to bolt on an iron casting and leave you with the problem of it falling off (uncommon) coming loose (more frequent) leaking (not unknown), rusting (always) and generally being a moot point when it comes to selling.

They are also not efficient shapes, just containers of ballast. Have a look bows on at the 'shape' of one on for example the Rivals and you will see there is no concession to foil shape or resistance to leeway. I have had lots of bolt on cast iron keeled boats and if prepared and painted properly, maintenance is not a problem. It is not so much a cost problem but a design one, because modern designs do not lend themselves to encapsulated keels which really go best with older wine glass style sections.

 

[Piddy]

Replying to the OP...

Having owned and sailed a Nic 32 for 20 years I would commend the ruggedness, the keep going, come-what-may abilities but....
The accommodation is absurdly small compared to a modern 32' boat, the handling in astern makes an experienced sailor look like a novice, the shape doesn't lend itself to drying out alongside walls - I've seen them at a rally, all pointing downwards and so on... I hated the keel stepped mast as it had to be lifted so high (and on a DIY arrangement, that was a problem).

When our kids were small it was fine keeping them on board with nice flat side decks and plenty to hang on to but once they started to grow space became seriously short. I note you are not keen on the Rival for its stretched ends but the forepeak and aft locker on a Nic 32 are pretty useless spaces for storage as they are either difficult to get to or an awkward shape.

We changed to a more modern centre cockpit boat for more space and gained a boat that has better sailing abilities, infinitely better handling characteristics when manoeuvring and a lot newer.
But… I don’t cross oceans. I cross the Channel when the weather is reasonable or I risk putting SWMBO off (and she means more to me than my boat!) and I loooove the space and the hot water and the diesel heater and the 4 auxiliary batteries and so on.

I’m not suggesting any make, it’s more of a suggestion to be sure what you know want to be doing with the boat before you decide on which make/model.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I hate to say I told you so, but you seem to be abandoning some of your key chosen features.

Yes you did warn me

My old man used to drum into me ... "never ask for advice unless you are prepared to listen to it".

My chosen features are still up there but it doesn't stop me agreeing that there are alternatives that deserve inspection. The main thrust of my query is that (up to now) the only boats that satisfies all my box ticks are the Nicholson 32, Rustler 32, Vancouver 32, Trident Challenger 35, Nic 35 etc. All these boats are 1960- 1970 designs. I asked if there was a more modern alternative.

If I must move away from these type of yachts to a more modern spacious choice then I must change my criterions.

I think it is necessary to have a list of features to keep ones feet on the ground so to speak.

I was in the Eastern Mediterranean a few days ago and the number of boats for sale was staggering. Every third boat had a For-Sale on her. In the Ionian they were literally giving boats away for the cost of the mooring. I was offered an Endevour 37 for less than £10,000. A Vancouver 32 reduced from £52,000 to £38,000, a Westerly Discus for £20,000. Without some guidlines for what you really want it would be easy to get carried away and buy the bargain of a lifetime and regret it because it is the wrong boat.

I was actually being accosted as I walked round the boatyards by desperate sellers. Appears that a combination of increased prices in Greece, higher taxes, low savings interest in UK, poor stock market performance, and the devaluation of the pound sterling is decimating the British liveaboard population. Such a shame.

 

[Tranona]

One look at my desired specs and it can be assumed that I don't want to be "drownded".

Why do you think a boat such as you have described means you are less likely to be "drownded"? There is just no evidence to support either that "drowning" is a regular occurence, nor that the design of the boat has anything to do with it (except the odd racing boat that loses its keel). And before you start telling me about Beneteaus rolling over, suggest you read Miles Smeetons accounts of his heavy long keeler rolling over - not once but on two occasions!

All the characteristics you quote as desirable have a downside, although of course not all particularly important to all people. However the totality that makes up the type of boats on your list is clearly not desired by many as very few designers design boats like that anymore (and many of the designers of such boats abandoned those principles pretty quickly when they learned a bit more about the materials at their disposal) and nobody buys them at current new market rates.

It seems to me (and I can be as guilty of this as anybody else, owning a Morgan) that one can get too hung up with a particular image of what you think is the right thing and constantly boost what you see as the good points and only seeing what you perceive as the bad points in the alternatives when the good are maybe not as good as you imagine and the bad are not as bad! My excuse for having a Morgan and ignoring all its bad points is because I bought it new, specifically to miss out on the inferior quality of older ones and the additional cost and aggro of keeping one going.

So, I think I could tolerate (almost) a new Nic 32 built to today's standards, but a glance at the only thing that gets near it (Rustler 36) shows that you would need 4 times your budget to buy one. But the combination of antiquated design/construction and 40 plus years of use means a no-no for me - however much I admire the aesthetics.

If you want a new boat meeting your spec, I am sure Ed Burnett (and a couple of others) could design one for you, but your building bill will make the Rustler look cheap, so with your limited budget you are for ever destined to have somebody elses cast off. The bonus of course is that you have a much wider choice if you are prepared move outside your self imposed boundaries.

 

[Tranona]

They are also not efficient shapes, just containers of ballast. Have a look bows on at the 'shape' of one on for example the Rivals and you will see there is no concession to foil shape or resistance to leeway. I have had lots of bolt on cast iron keeled boats and if prepared and painted properly, maintenance is not a problem. It is not so much a cost problem but a design one, because modern designs do not lend themselves to encapsulated keels which really go best with older wine glass style sections.

The whole issue of shapes is more related to materials than anything else. The wineglass section, long keel shape was like that because that was the way wood wanted to be shaped. If you look at the history of design you will see that building boats in GRP using "wood" type shapes lasted for less than 20 years. then designers realised how much "better" boats could be if theyt were different shapes - mad possible by the new materials.

As you say encapsulated keels are generally an inefficient shape - and not always as trouble free as claimed - particularly if iron or dare I say steel punchings are used for ballast. In just the same way, the downside of bolt on keels is often exaggerated. Sure, if you plan to go rock or coral hopping an encapsulated keel - or maybe a steel boat might be better. But for the average personrunning aground is not a big issue. (Probability vs consequences debate - rehearsed enough times here).

 

[BurnitBlue]

And before you start telling me about Beneteaus rolling over, suggest you read Miles Smeetons accounts of his heavy long keeler rolling over - not once but on two occasions!

Hi Tranona. I am surprised at your outburst. Putting words in my mouth. Let me remind you that I sought advice about the conclusion I have come to that the features I find desirable in a yacht can only be matched by the Nic 32 etc. I asked if there were others, more modern, that I had missed. Got lots of good information back and I say thanks to all.

Miles Smeeten rolled over during a storm close to Cape Horn and he and the boat and all crew survived. Not once but on two occasions. Be honest now, would your Bavaria survive such treatment. Actually if my memory serves me, Miles Smeeten pitch poled not rolled on one of the occasions. A much more devastating manouvre. His heavy long keeled boat shook off the water righted herself and made port without outside assistance. Not once but on two occasions. QED, Say no more.

 

[Tranona]

Hi Tranona. I am surprised at your outburst. Putting words in my mouth. Let me remind you that I sought advice about the conclusion I have come to that the features I find desirable in a yacht can only be matched by the Nic 32 etc. I asked if there were others, more modern, that I had missed. Got lots of good information back and I say thanks to all.

Miles Smeeten rolled over during a storm close to Cape Horn and he and the boat and all crew survived. Not once but on two occasions. Be honest now, would your Bavaria survive such treatment. Actually if my memory serves me, Miles Smeeten pitch poled not rolled on one of the occasions. A much more devastating manouvre. His heavy long keeled boat shook off the water righted herself and made port without outside assistance. Not once but on two occasions. QED, Say no more.

I know what you are asking and I hope you find my comments useful. Was not for one moment suggesting you had a Bavaria (but then you don't know what you are missing) as you clearly have very fixed views - and don't forget I also own a traditional long keeler and have done for 30 years! It is the "drowned" bit - no I doubt my Bavaria would behave in the same way as Tzu Hang, and no I am not going to test it out, because like most people I do everything I can to avoid getting into such a situation - as I am sure you do.

I guess I was really musing why I thought there were no "modern" ie newer boats with the features you find desirable and maybe suggesting that those distinctive features are perhaps not so essential - otherwise boats would still be made like it!

BTW did you look at the Tradewind 33 in Corfu on your Med travels? Like the others you looked at, dropped in price because there is no demand for such boats out there (nor Bavarias unless you "give them away" - which is part of the reason why mine is now in the UK). Looks very well equipped and well kept when I saw it last - but think it has teak decks! www.pinnacleyachtsales.com

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

With that budget...

As a Nic 32 owner, I would have to say that with your budget I would be hard pressed to recommend a Nic 32. As a general rule, Nic 32s should not cost more than £30k or so, even in good shape. Although, if you really want a Nic 32 in very good shape (new electronics, bowthruster, shore power, etc.) and have £40k to spend, PM me...pics in my public forum album.

I think if I had a desire for that type of boat and that budget, I would seriously look at Nic 35s however. The extra size would be useful.

On the other hand, buying a Nic 32 and polishing it up with the cash saved can give you a very nice, classic boat that you can bring up to spec any way you want to. That has been my plan, and I am SURE that it is not the most economical decision, as I am spending more than will ever get back on re-sale. But I am learning an awful lot about boats...and my gf loves the Nic because of the doghouse windows and classic charm.

N.B. - the Halmatics problems are frankly minor in the instances I know...my 1966 hull has been epoxy treated, but it probably needs a refresh as I had a few small blisters winter haul out. They took a whole half hour to pop and patch...

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

whats it for

have I missed it did you mention what you plan to use it for.

You have a pretty good budget for the type or boat you are after. You could buy my HR Rasmus (or a NAB 35 - same boat but finished in GB by Reg White) and have change to tidy it up. (its not for sale!). It ticks all your boxes except it has a deck stepped mast. It does have a pin to hold the mast in place so i can't see it jumping out though. Ludd lives aboard his very comfortably. It is however more of an ocean basher than a thoroughbred sailor

The Pioneer 10 also fits your bill but is way under budget.

Warrior 35 has a deeper keel and sails better but more plastic fit out but also fits the spec

Wouldn't want to park any of the above in a marina on a regular basis.

If I had your budget I'd be looking for a Moody 34 or Sadler 34

Nic 35 is a lovely boat for the spec and budget.

As i 've said - misalignment between budget and spec. What do you want to do with it and where so you intend to park it. (Marina encourages shorter length per pound, mooring encourages buying space per pound.)

 

[doug748]

Blutwo, that Vancouver looks a good piece of business. I would avail yourself of the bargain prices and not worry too much about which class of boat - within reason of course.
I must agree with Squarbob though, the Nicholson 35 looks the pick of the boats you mention at the outset. An earlier contributor says he knows of "much better boats", he must live in a happy place.

 

[BurnitBlue]

It would appear that the consensus from the forum is slowly focussing on the Nicholson 35 as the best option at my budget.

I agree with this after reading all the arguments and I thank everyone for taking the time to examine my (peculiar) priorities and come up with a "best choice". The only reason I did not concentrate on the Nicholson 35 is their relative scarcity. However there does seem to be a steady supply of them placed on the market over time although not all at once.

There is a very good example in the Caribbean advertised on Yachtworld. There is one in Portugal, and two in the UK. Blimey, that's four of them. Tally-ho. On with the chase.

So the answer to my question "Is there a modern equivalent to the Nicholson 32" Is "No, but the nearest you will get to it will be a Nicholson 35".