Is there a modern equivalant to the Nicholson 32

[GlennG]

This boat buying business is not easy these days. I reckon it is because of the incredible choice that the Internet gives a guy straight to his armchair. In the past one went with what was available locally and got on the bike to view.

I'm sure you could ask on this forum for a look around or even a sail on some of the boats you've mentioned. Especially this time of year when these boats *can* go sailing whilst the lightweight AWB's shiver in their marina berths for the winter;-)

Small point about the Contessa 32; last weekend I needed one of those get away from it all weekends. So sailing single-handed in to the 28kt+ NE'terly was just plain fun. Heave to to put one reef in (just the first of three) and a few turns on the genoa, and she's sailing like a dream. Sure, she's wet, but that's where the investment in Mr Musto's finest comes into its own. I went to Harty Ferry (north of Faversham in Kent), picked up a mooring buoy with no problems (just lean over and hook it -- low freeboard), then spent a peaceful night, OK, a little lumpy, but I liked it and slept like a log for 12 hours. Next day I had a very gentle motor back home (no wind!), with a couple of hours waiting on the mud for the water to come back in (spoken like a true East Coast sailor!). Just sat there in the sunshine reading and learning to play the harmonica. Water came in, I motored home. Perfect weekend.

Things I've noticed about other boats... The interior is very important. Lots of them have loads of white showing; I like the cosy wood interior. Space if you're single or short-handing isn't too much of an issue with the exception of the heads. The Contessa does have two 'cabins' so it's nicer for a couple of blokes - the forepeak's fairly short but enough for 5'10. When my wife stays on board we both sleep in the saloon and stow everything in the forepeak.

I'm reasonably happy about compromising space for sailing manners. Sure, I'm the first to dream at the back of Yachting Monthly, but £100k more is a lot of money Better to sail than dream and in this economic climate, it's better to own a smaller boat than stretching oneself financially. Owning a Contessa 32 is a particular pleasure as people nearly always have nice things to say about her!

PM me if you're interested in a look round or even a sail.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Miles Smeeten rolled over during a storm close to Cape Horn and he and the boat and all crew survived. Not once but on two occasions. Be honest now, would your Bavaria survive such treatment.

Is there any specific reason why a Bavaria would not survive being rolled twice? I could imagine it might be more prone to losing its mast [1] which might then puncture the hull, but apart from that I see no obvious reason why it wouldn't. (I could be wrong, I have been before!)

[1] Maybe it has a bit less redundancy in standing rigging that some older boats?

 

[Robin]

Amazing really

When you read such discussions that there are any designers and yacht builders still surviving in business after say 1975! What point is there I wonder?

What might be required is a new generation of authors like the Hiscocks, Smeetons and Roth to name but few, but who write about their experiences in their nice modern boats! Strange too how the exploits and incidents experienced by these renowned authors are used by armchair pundits to argue against modern designs, yet the similar era exploits of those like Shane Acton in Shrimpy (plywood bilge keel Caprice) the young American Robin something in Dove are ignored and someone else in a Hunter 19, yet those were surely very flimsy craft.

Strange too how views are different once you cross the Channel where modern is applauded.

Funny old world, and for sure over here it is staying 'old'.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What might be required is a new generation of authors like the Hiscocks, Smeetons and Roth to name but few, but who write about their experiences in their nice modern boats! Strange too how the exploits and incidents experienced by these renowned authors are used by armchair pundits to argue against modern designs, yet the similar era exploits of those like Shane Acton in Shrimpy (plywood bilge keel Caprice) the young American Robin something in Dove are ignored and someone else in a Hunter 19, yet those were surely very flimsy craft.

I agree, but I still think these accounts do exist. There are countless blogs of people doing serious mileage in challenging conditions in AWBs. More than half the entries in the ARC are AWBs. I'm not holding that up as overly challenging but even so, it's crossing an ocean, FFS. Question: Is the apparent lack of books of daring on the high seas in AWBs because modern building processes and modern comms and Navigation have taken the challenge out of adventure sailing to such a high degree that it's no longer remarkable?

On the other side of the scales rose tinted glasses are often donned when reading the older accounts. Almost all of the old guys who wrote first hand accounts of the various RTW voyages in the 60's spent ages making running repairs at sea, many quite serious. In an old copy of "Heavy Weather Sailing" a common theme was wooden boats "making water" under stress. Unheard of in a modern boat. These never get mentioned.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Question: Is the apparent lack of books of daring on the high seas in AWBs because modern building processes and modern comms and Navigation have taken the challenge out of adventure sailing to such a high degree that it's no longer remarkable?

My guess is that there are just as many old school adventurers as ever, but an awful lot more people taking advantage of modern designs, materials an electronics to do things in a less adventurous (that's not a criticism) way.

 

[johnchampion]

When you read such discussions that there are any designers and yacht builders still surviving in business after say 1975! What point is there I wonder?

What might be required is a new generation of authors like the Hiscocks, Smeetons and Roth to name but few, but who write about their experiences in their nice modern boats! Strange too how the exploits and incidents experienced by these renowned authors are used by armchair pundits to argue against modern designs, yet the similar era exploits of those like Shane Acton in Shrimpy (plywood bilge keel Caprice) the young American Robin something in Dove are ignored and someone else in a Hunter 19, yet those were surely very flimsy craft.

Strange too how views are different once you cross the Channel where modern is applauded.

Funny old world, and for sure over here it is staying 'old'.

The someone else in the Hunter 19 was David Blagden (AKA David Marks before he became an actor). He was later lost at sea.

 

[Robin]

My guess is that there are just as many old school adventurers as ever, but an awful lot more people taking advantage of modern designs, materials an electronics to do things in a less adventurous (that's not a criticism) way.

That to an extent is my point. People like Chichester, Rose, knox Johnson, the Hiscocks, Smeetons, Roth, Pardeys are folk heroes in our boating world because they did it when it was really hard and they were a very select band. Now boating is for all that wish to join in and although the journeys can be as daunting the tools and the sheer numbers making the journey make it common enough that no new books are written, except when something goes wrong maybe.

Yet the old time heroes with the classic boats and the classic books are the ones still calling the shots with the newcomers now, in wanting boats that 'can go anywhere' and it is their opinions on design that are still seen as the only way to go. Then you get Ellen and Sam and co, beating all records in ultra fast boats in unbelievable seas and all alone, yet as far as designs are concerned their boats are sneered at!

We need to move into the 20th Century, preferably before we leave the 21st!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Yet the old time heroes with the classic boats and the classic books are the ones still calling the shots with the newcomers now, in wanting boats that 'can go anywhere' and it is their opinions on design that are still seen as the only way to go. Then you get Ellen and Sam and co, beating all records in ultra fast boats in unbelievable seas and all alone, yet as far as designs are concerned their boats are sneered at!

We need to move into the 20th Century, preferably before we leave the 21st!

+1

 

[GlennG]

The one time I crossed Biscay and sailed to the south of Spain on a yacht was on a new Dufour 40 a few years back. A very AWB that basically fell apart as we progressed, eventually resulting in us having to make an emergency diversion because the steering completely failed -- the memory of seeing the wheel rotating in the wind is something I will never forget.

Things that broke included batteries falling out onto me whilst I was sleeping (rubbish joinery); autopilot failing resulting in 2 hour watches; bits falling off the boat like the cupboards in the forepeak damaging the cabin (that's rubbish joinery); the electrical switch-board constantly falling down and killing the lights; the ONE companionway handle resulting in a fall onto the galley; gaps under the sink unit are bloody painful when one's foot slips under the gap; holes in the floor where anything on the chart table would fall through; the list went to 2 pages. A couple of broaches when the steering failed resulted in the sail being ripped (yep, the mast was in the water) and shredded dodgers. I suppose one must commend the quick-clear cockpit as the green water flooded out of the open transom.

The thing that really sticks in my mind was the constant slamming of the boat. That and the 50cm emergency tiller to control a full-sized spade rudder.

I'm sorry, but you can stick your AWBs if you're doing proper sailing. Any of the boats on the OP's list wouldn't have suffered that amount of damage as they're fundamentally built properly and not out of cheaply finished ply and sealant. They pretty much all have a decent forefoot so wouldn't slam all the time.

Just my personal experience rather than hearsay.

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

The one time I crossed Biscay and sailed to the south of Spain on a yacht was on a new Dufour 40 a few years back. A very AWB that basically fell apart as we progressed, eventually resulting in us having to make an emergency diversion...
The thing that really sticks in my mind was the constant slamming of the boat. That and the 50cm emergency tiller to control a full-sized spade rudder.

I'm sorry, but you can stick your AWBs if you're doing proper sailing. Any of the boats on the OP's list wouldn't have suffered that amount of damage as they're fundamentally built properly and not out of cheaply finished ply and sealant. They pretty much all have a decent forefoot so wouldn't slam all the time.

Just my personal experience rather than hearsay.

+1...but that DOESN'T mean you can't make them a lot more stylish and modern than the older ones...having a decent forefoot, good joinery, proper decking and cabin sole (there is NO space to jam a toe on my Nic 32...), etc. are all things that are style-neutral. For that matter, even a stiff masthead rig doesn't really affect the style too much.

 

[SailBobSquarePants]

Yet the old time heroes with the classic boats and the classic books are the ones still calling the shots with the newcomers now, in wanting boats that 'can go anywhere' and it is their opinions on design that are still seen as the only way to go. Then you get Ellen and Sam and co, beating all records in ultra fast boats in unbelievable seas and all alone, yet as far as designs are concerned their boats are sneered at!

We need to move into the 20th Century, preferably before we leave the 21st!

There is a simple explanation for that dichotomy. The boats that Ellen and Sam drive are highly demanding and require quite a bit of ACTIVE steering and activity in bad weather. They demand a crew that is not scared, not overcome with seasickness, nor badly injured at any time. They demand a crew that know active helming - how to surf down 60 foot waves, at night, for hours at a time.

Frankly, many modern sailors would find that impossible - which is why we think Ellen and Sam are so godlike.

If you don't have that level of skill, fighting a bad sea state in a very lightweight boat can be suicidal. Whereas, an older, heavier boat, especially with a full keel, can always put out a sea anchor, heave to, or even lie a hull and bob. She may roll a bit, she may even roll over...but she probably won't break. And her crew can wrap themselves up belowdecks, cushion themselves from every possible moving object, and wait it out if need be. They will likely survive, even if they don't have extreme skills.

And that's the difference...in the same way that I shouldn't be given the wheel of an F1 car, many sailors simply cannot manage the active storm techniques used by the pros. They are far safer in a nice heavy sedan, or even an SUV...

But having said that, there is no reason for boats of this nature to be fugly and olde fashioned in style...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

......(Modern) These boats have Ballast ratios up near the 50% mark, and with their low CG keels, and decent form stability too, they're a hell of a lot stiffer than their older cousins. This makes them comfortable and fast in a blow, AND with more accomodation. Then turn them downwind and the hull design makes them a LOT faster and easier to helm.....

You just have to look at the picture of the Rival 32 above to see how healed over she is if the waves on the water are anything to go by for wind speed. On many popular modern designs, as Flaming clearly explains, you get a lot more for less heal.

I am a fan of older hull shapes for aesthetic reason's but owning a yacht from the 70's with encapsulated keel, low freeboard, small main, 41', very good price, it does pee me off at times. A smaller modern hull has outstanding accommodation space and manoeuvrability compared to my tub.

Having come back to sailing after a big break, I bought for two reasons: right price and I knew the boat model well. Having now sailed modern boats as well, while I do not like their style, hands down in most departments they are better.

If price is a challenge, then some of these older designs, smaller lengths, are exceptional value for money, for club racing and cruising, exceptional value. However, you will come to realise, that the modern, upright boat which has just overtaken you is both smaller, roomier and just as seaworthy (or can be made so).

I like both the Sigma 33 and the Sigma 36. Mast head versions may be comparable with your choices.

 

[GlennG]

As Bob Marley put it: we're slamming.

Sure, the modern (cheap, lightweight) boats may overtake. Until the wind gets up a bit and conditions get into the fun range when they're reefing everything to 'stay upright'.

 

[Robin]

There is a simple explanation for that dichotomy. The boats that Ellen and Sam drive are highly demanding and require quite a bit of ACTIVE steering and activity in bad weather. They demand a crew that is not scared, not overcome with seasickness, nor badly injured at any time. They demand a crew that know active helming - how to surf down 60 foot waves, at night, for hours at a time.

Frankly, many modern sailors would find that impossible - which is why we think Ellen and Sam are so godlike.

If you don't have that level of skill, fighting a bad sea state in a very lightweight boat can be suicidal. Whereas, an older, heavier boat, especially with a full keel, can always put out a sea anchor, heave to, or even lie a hull and bob. She may roll a bit, she may even roll over...but she probably won't break. And her crew can wrap themselves up belowdecks, cushion themselves from every possible moving object, and wait it out if need be. They will likely survive, even if they don't have extreme skills.

And that's the difference...in the same way that I shouldn't be given the wheel of an F1 car, many sailors simply cannot manage the active storm techniques used by the pros. They are far safer in a nice heavy sedan, or even an SUV...

But having said that, there is no reason for boats of this nature to be fugly and olde fashioned in style...

Well I was using the Ellen & Sam extreme example to illustrate a point and I think the average sailing couple would struggle to handle a 60ft heavyweight long keeler in the Southern Ocean as well!

 

[VO5]

As Bob Marley put it: we're slamming.

Sure, the modern (cheap, lightweight) boats may overtake. Until the wind gets up a bit and conditions get into the fun range when they're reefing everything to 'stay upright'.

And if I may add.... 'remain undamaged'.....as the fun range inevitably exposes underbuilding.

 

[Ubergeekian]

And if I may add.... 'remain undamaged'.....as the fun range inevitably exposes underbuilding.

It's interesting that old fashioned designs generally seem to be associated with heavy builds and modern hull forms with lightweight construction. Is there any particular need for that to be the case? Are there any builders making really solid boats with uncompromisingly modern hull shapes? Or is lightness of the essence?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

It's interesting that old fashioned designs generally seem to be associated with heavy builds and modern hull forms with lightweight construction. Is there any particular need for that to be the case? Are there any builders making really solid boats with uncompromisingly modern hull shapes? Or is lightness of the essence?

In my view, there's no meaningful relationship between weight and strength. A better measure of strength is required if comparisons are to be made.

WRT performance. Low freeboard long keelers are only faster than AWB's upwind in a blow. Off the wind the AWB still wins by a country mile. So is it a good idea to have a boat optimized for upwind sailing in a blow at the expense of everything else? I know what my answer is.

 

[flaming]

As Bob Marley put it: we're slamming.

Sure, the modern (cheap, lightweight) boats may overtake. Until the wind gets up a bit and conditions get into the fun range when they're reefing everything to 'stay upright'.

Still upright, still dryer, still faster. Slamming happens when you try and sail light boats in the same way as you would sail older boats. Different designs, different tactics.

There's a reason a Contessa 32 rates something like 15% slower than an Elan 333. And the new 310, though not everybody's taste, rates even faster.

I doubt there's an "older" style boat in the same size range that could possibly hang onto an X34 upwind in 25kts. I've seen an X34 cruise past a 1970s Swan 40 upwind in 20kts +, pointing higher and going faster, and yes they were in the same race. And that shouldn't be a suprise, after all I can buy a hot hatch today that's quicker than a 1970s Supercar. Why do we accept that, but not accept that the same has happened in Boats?

New boats are faster upwind as the wind builds. This isn't based on marketing hype, this is based on real world experience of racing a 2004 build Elan against older boats, and watching the even newer designs (X34, Dehler 34RS/35) come along and give us a hard time upwind. The Sigmas etc have only really stood a chance in the lighter conditions when our extra stability isn't being used. The windier it gets, the more we pull away.

This is not, btw, me saying that old boats are rubbish and that everyone should buy new boats. That's certainly not true, and these boats will clearly give great enjoyment to many people and at a price that certianly makes them attractive. I'm simply saying that the hype about "propper boats" outperforming their modern rivals is just that, hype, and the game has moved on, and buyers of the more "classic" boats should be aware of this when making their choices.

 

[GlennG]

And if I may add.... 'remain undamaged'.....as the fun range inevitably exposes underbuilding.

We're slammin, slammin...
And I want to be undamaged too...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

We're slammin, slammin...
And I want to be undamaged too...

GlenG, but that is what happens, they remain undamaged. Not my style but only because of looks and layout, not because old, full keeled, heavy boats are faster or even structurally better.