Is it the folding prop?

[1114C]

Have been sailing our 26' for 3 years now and got caught in our first blow yesterday - gusting up to force 7 it said. We still made it home but it took 10 hours rather than the usual 6 for the same journey - lots of other boats out at the same time and we were all motoring to get around the headland and as I had my wife on board who was not keen to put the sails up in that wind we did the same (to be honest I was not keen either)! Everyone else, mostily in bigger boats but not all, kept going fine - our engine would not get us above 2 knots and often struggled for one knot! Revs were fine at all times but as soon as the sea picked up she struggled in terms of speed- she is not the original engine and is fine in all other regard (Volvo but stupidly cannot remember the model right now) - we are never the fastest boat under power but can usually trundle along at 4 knots quite happily.

All I could think was that a folding prop may be making a difference - would swapping this for a fixed prop make us stronger under power whilst of course slowing us down a bit sailing

To get round the headland I eventually persuaded my wife that we should put out a small headsail (more of a hanky really) and we tacked with engine round the point - everyone else had disappeared by that point!

The point of this rambling story is - has anyone swapped a folding prop for a fixed one and noticed a great difference or vice versa?

Wift now considering never sailing again!

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[bedouin]

I think it depends a lot on the folding and fixed props involved.

I replaced my 2 bladed fixed prop with a Gori 3 bladed folding prop and got a noticable improvement in all areas. Faster and better handling under power both forwards and reverse and an improvement in sailing speed. I think one of the main reasons for that is that the fixed prop has to compromise between performance under power and drag under sail and so is smaller than is ideal. Since the folding prop does not have the same problems with creating drag under sail it can be larger and therefore more efficient under power.

If you want good performance under power make sure you've got 3 blades, be that fixed, folding, feathering or auto-pitching. If you can afford it then a good folding/feathering prop will give benefits both under power and sail.

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[quaelgeist2]

Yes - done it and notice the same. From 3 blade fix to 2 blade folder. Not ideal dimensions as I know now (have a 15*9 on recommendation of Volvo, actually need a 15*11), doesn't bother me usually unless in/out of harbour has long stretches into strong winds.

Everything else I sail or stay in the harbour.

If you want to motor with no wind, get a 2 blade folder - if you want to motor in strong winds, get a feathering 3 blader (dear piece of equipment, though)

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[snowleopard]

i very much doubt your problem is down to the prop and you would be disappointed if you changed to a fixed prop and got only marginal improvement. if you can only do 4 knots in flat water the engine is simply not up to the job of pushing you against that amount of wind and sea. having had 3 such boats in the past, i concluded that if you opt for low power you must be prepared to sail in all but calm conditions or upgrade your power.



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[scottie]

you answered your own question by motor sailing
this is often the the only option especially into both wind and sea.
some times even heading slightly of wind and motoring can be enough to kepp way on the boat
A 3 blade prop may well be better butwhen it comes to f7 in a 26 ft boat a small amount of jib thaat can lift the boat may well be the best answer


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[brianhumber]

Re: I agree NM

NM

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[1114C]

Thinking about it whilst working this morning I rather feared that was the case - the simple truth really is that perhaps we did not have sufficient experience for the conditions and in hindsight we should really just have sailed all the way as the motor, whilst reliable and great to get us home when no wind, just is not up to the job through the rough seas

Will still consider the other options mentioned of the three bladed prop also - something to read up about although cost sounds like it will be bad. Upgrading power is not really an option just now alas

Oh well, no harm done, both got home safely (albeit four hours later than expected) and no one else had to come to our rescue and I suppose our experiences have been broadened

All I have to do now is persuade the wife to come sailing again - that will not be so easy!

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[webcraft]

We have a knackered old Volvo in our Vega. It will push the boat along at 4.5 knots in still water with an acceptable amount of smoke, but motoring into a steep sea soon takes the way off her.

We sail whenever possible, and when that is not possible we motor-sail - usually for one of three reasons:
- we need to make up time in light airs
- the boat is rolling too badly to keep the sails full in lighter winds
- or because we have had to reduce sail so much when beating in strong (F6) conditions that we can no longer make the desired angle and need the bit of extra help the engine gives.

In the latter case you still need to tack to make progress when motorsailing to windward in strong conditions, but you can improve your VMG (i.e. make a better angle to the wind).

If there is any wind at all I always motor-sail unless sea conditions make it impossible to keep the sails filled in light airs, as this will always give you a bit of extra speed if your engine is not pushing the boat at hull speed.

I think your conclusion is right - you should have sailed, with or without motor assistance. A sailing yacht is designed to sail efficiently, and the engine is generally a bit of an afterthought - that is why it is referred to as an auxiliary. If you want to be able to motor in any conditions you need a motor sailer.

I think people like to drop their sails and motor when the wind gets up because it makes them feel safe . . . under sail the forces can seem huge and scary, but if you can handle your boat under sail in most conditions you will be a happier and more confident yachtsman. With sail up you can usually find a solution, but with a small auxiliary engine you may not always be able to motor your way out of trouble.

The final point I would add is that the motion of a yacht in a seaway is nearly always more comfortable with some sail up.


- Nick



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[snowleopard]

changing from folding to fixed prop is a lot cheaper than the other way round, by a factor of 4. unfortunately it will make a significant difference to your performance under sail and little to that under motor, the worst of all worlds.

as has been said, motor-sailing is an option, doing so under reduced canvas is one ofthe most comfortable ways of dealing with a head sea, though not the quickest.

spent 2 days doing that in my boat which is averse to steep head seas. it made an unpleasant sail into a merely boring one.

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[PeteMcK]

Passed you in the East Kyle, Tom. You looked ok to me. My answer would be 'Yes' - I fitted a 2-blade folder about six years ago in place of a fixed 3-blade and the occasional steep wave almost stops us dead now. We can still get airborne too, which is probably worse, and we were deliberately running at 2/3 revs yesterday: there's a fine line to be drawn here. You need the folder if you're racing as the CYCA allowance system doesn't adequately compensate for fixed props.
We motored upwind into Rothesay Bay hoping to get a fast fetch round Toward with only the No 1 up but ended up getting headed all the way out to mid-firth. Should have set up properly for a beat up the Kyle, and changed down to the No 3 and put up the main when we left Caladh, but were too lazy, having had a late Saturday in Tarbert with some of the W Highland Week returnees we were rafted on.
I suppose what I'm saying is, the real answer, for your boat, mine, and most others, is to sail. I've seen Peanuts' twin, Oyster of Ashton, in these conditions often and she seems to make decent progress without much fuss. Why don't you do the open autumn series at Kip and Largs, three weeks at each: F6/7 (and more...) practice guaranteed.



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[charles_reed]

Not entirely

I've had a 2-blade folding, fixed and finally a 3-bladed self-pitching prop on the same boat.

On a boat that size trying to go to windward under motor alone, whatever the prop is, like Sisiphus trying to roll a stone uphill with his hands tied behind his back, a slow and painful business.

You'd get marginally better grip with the fixed prop, but probably find the engine labouring because it was, under those conditions, overpropped.

The answer is to motorsail, using the reefed main rather than the foresail.

With a fixed prop you'd find slightly better drive (little to choose in flat calm conditions) far better reversing, but would find yourself about 1/2 knot slower in lighter winds with no difference in heavy winds - I'd not bother.

Next time ignore the wife and lift some main - I've managed to beat up a 5m leg into Lagos in 40+ knots of wind using the fully reefed main with the motor - 5 other boats had to drop their hooks in the lee of the headland and wait 8 hours for the wind to drop.

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[1114C]

Ah yes we were not too bad at that point but before we got anywhere close to the cardinal mark down that Kyle, you were well out of sight - we slowed down right after that once it got a bit lumpier and then sailed all the way really from the cardinal mark in to Kip - arrived with hugely dark skies and some big squalls at around 1915 - given that we had left Tarbert at 0920 it made for a mighy long day!! Only one hour from Ardlamont point to the Burnt islands as well!!

I do not think slowing her down under sail is really an option so we will stick with the folding prop for now and then just get more experience of sailing in stronger blows - probably without my wife at first so I can get more comfortable myself

Would love to do the racing but I work in Hamilton and never get away before 6 so would never make it in time - also I think the previous owner did quite well in Peanuts so would not want to embarass her now (the boat that is)

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[PeteMcK]

Didn't half get dark as we were clearing the boat: scariest sky I've seen for a long time.
FYC autumn racing is on Sunday afternoons, two races per week for six weeks. If you don't feel like taking your own boat out, most boats are looking for crew.

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[1114C]

Thanks for that - will consider asking around to see if I can be crew as probably not ready to take Peanuts out on a race at this stage

Sky very scary off Kip - looking south could see the lighthouse light and not much else then doing 6 knots with reefed mainsail let right out (and no engine/foresail) - not my idea of fun

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[ayms]

Webcraft I totally aggree. We used to have a 28ft Benetau with a new Yanny but in big seas sailing / motor sailing is the only way providing you get the right sail plan setup.

tomgregory: reef her right down and you should be fine. She should also be more comfortable.

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[JimMcMillan]

Was that you we passed at Toward? Persuade wife it was a bad day, we were down to less than 1knot at times as was the nic 34 that came round astern of us once round we were flying. To answer propellor question it will make no difference. I've been there and am about to go back to folding.
Jim

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[1114C]

Yes that would have been us I think - watched you go past us, you were closer to the land (with some blue on the boat?) as we had given up on the engine and sailed in from there - got better from that point - looking back on it now after a couple of nights reflection as a solid building up of experience and it could have been worse - someone was getting towed back to Largs by a larger boat - that must have been a long trip for them!!

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[JimMcMillan]

Yup. Toward's not the best place many a time and the nasty jopple stops the boat completly but it can be a long haul to get round, still as you say you did not require assistance you just add it to the learning curve(the curve never stops).

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