Is it me? or a re 2nd hand boats overpriced?

[Guest]

I\'ll upset a few here !!

I am going to upset a few poeple again here ..... having bought and sold a fair number of boats in my family over the years .... and also surveyed many - I can honestly say that boats and computers are in a similar league ! High priced to initially buy and then later when you want to sell value it too high.

I have seen the rise in 'ASKING price for Centaurs over years for example till it reached steady level and has remained there, based I believe NOT on actual real value - but punters willing to pay ridiculous prices ...
Other boats similarly have held value, despite their ever increasing old -age. Many now exceed by wide margin the original new price ..... some to a factor of 6x or more !!!! Can you believe it ... No ? Check it out ...... New price on a 26ft'r about 2500 30 years ago ..... now asking 'so-called Classic' prices of 12000.

I still advoacte the offers and walk away policy .... prices are usually based on what they see advertised for other similar boats - this only keeps the situation going ... Offer substantially less, DUCK as he tries to hit you ! Walk away leaving your telephone number and see what happens ..... after a few days if no call - call him and up it slightly ....

I did it many a time and have generally bought my boats for 60 - 70% of original asking price ..... in fact one of them a Snapdragon 23 for 35% of original asking price ..... IT CAN BE DONE !

Finally a word in favour of 2nd hand ...... normally they come well inventoried and can save a fortune on all those gadgets and bits and bobs you need to buy for extra for that new job ...

 

[Vic]

Since certain time I am asking myself the same question and I still don't find the answer.
The purchase of the used boat obviously is not considered by the potential buyers in terms of possible and sometimes significant risks.
These risks obviously can't be excluded by the use of such measures as surveys etc. There are basically quality risks, but might be also fraud and any other legal risks (20 boats lost every day in UK ? not to mention other countries).
The new boat with the suppliers guarantees for every piece of it including latent defects, with clean papers obviously constitute no risk to the buyer at all. Moreover the security for the guarantee period is provided.
The valuation of any risk is never easy but it can be done using some simple rules of thumb. Even if we do not compare eg used Westerly with new Bavaria to avoid unnecessary discussion but used Bavs vs new Bavs we can notice absolutely silly second hand prices advertised.
Why the buyers behave unreasonably creating strange market ?

Victor

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: I\'ll upset a few here !!

So it isn't just me

Having scouted around I am amazed at the state of some the boats that are asking pepole to part with 20K to 30K of taxed income.

I note your points re negotiation. But it still seems a mad market. I am sure it must be partly that there is a ready supply of novice purchsers who fall in love with a certain boat and part with the asking price.
However I will continue to rent for the time being. It offers a broader sailing area and no unforeseen costs.


Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[tcm]

a naughty idea

a few years ago i tried to buuy a certain make and model of car, hideiously over-valued imho. Before buying, I placed three adverts with bogus telephone numbers at prices around that which I considered reasonable, around 25% less than other adverts. The following week the prices tumbled.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: a naughty idea

TCM
You cunning bugger
Does it work the other way

If so i have 2 long shaft seagulls, both running, at 2K each. ;-))

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[bedouin]

Re: a naughty idea

Now there's a thought - it probably does.

Next time I want to sell the boat I'll place 3 ads, 2 of them at ridiculously inflated prices (with low inventory) and 1 at a more normal price, that will look like good value in comparison.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: a naughty idea

Just so's I know and donot get caught out. What boat do i look out for?

you can whisper, none is listening.

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: a naughty idea

Even better, selling your house?...... got an offer?.......get a friend to role-play a competing purchaser and drive up your real-purchaser's price...... not done it myself but know of people who have made extra £10ks this way...... just don't know how they sleep at night!

 

[tcm]

Re: which proves the point!

we have no idea if somethings's "worth" 20 grand or 200 grand - just that if others are 15k then 20k is steep, and likewise if others are 300k then 200k is a bargain.

so best option to make silly offers, and/or place a series of boat ads.

This month in YM - three times as many boats for sale! Some of them actually exist!

 

[bedouin]

Re: which proves the point!

Somewhere in another thread (or maybe even on another board) someone pointed out that boats without pictures are more expensive than boats with pictures. Now I know the reason.

Those with pictures actually exist, those without are just put in to drive up the price of the others!

 

[Twister_Ken]

Vic,

One distorting factor is that the sticker price for a new baot is not what you end up paying. Apart from silly charges like commissioning and anti-fouling, almost no new boats come with much in the way of sails, electronics, kedge anchors, adequate chain, anchor winches, fenders, shore lines, tenders, outboards, spares, flares, safety equipment, teak decks, holding tanks, spinnaker winches, etc.

By the time you've added what you want you can be looking at somewhere between a 15-25% price hike on a modestly priced new boat.

When you buy second hand generally all that lot is included, so that a used boat costiong, say £50,000, should not be compared with her new sistership at £60,000 but at £60,000 plus say 20%. Suddenly £50K vs £72K looks more sensible.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: a naughty idea

Isn't that what brokers do anyway?! In my industry we call it vapour-ware!

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: which proves the point!

so lying solent, should read, lying b*st*rd

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[david_e]

Re: a naughty idea = common practice

Not as uncommon as you might think. Big discount specialists do it all the time, advertise stuff they don't have, can't get, won't supply etc. It's easy to sell stuff at a loss if you don't have it and don't intend to stock it, gets the punters interested and coming to you, most people fall for it.

Look at ryanair and sleezyjet, get away with it all the time.

I also reckon we now live in the age of small print, so vigilant are the consumer groups that small print is bandied around everywhere to protect themselves, they also use it to cover terms and conditions.

 

[Guest]

Re: a naughty idea

I won't let you know what boat I have !!!!

Food for thought though !!

 

[Vic]

Well, I believe that I have considered also the potential extras in the boats equipment and in my opinion it does not still give the correct answer.
I have been doing many comparisons before and here is another one which seems to be more in favour to the used boat than the other cases, but still not understandable to me in terms of buyers decision making.
E.g. lets consider the current Hanse 311 advertisement in used boat section of YBW. New price including the commissioning and delivery some 45 k GBP (as advertised in YM and PBO, ex works price acc. to web 41 k)
Advertised second hand 81 k EUR year 2001 (there is also another older one 87,5 no spec.) which makes some 50 k GBP.
(I assume the boat and other items are already out of guarantee period).
Amount of factory extras (including larger engine) as per Hanse web pricelist 3 k GBP, other extras based on Compass prices and my generous estimate 4 k GBP.
Total new with extras 52 k GBP.
Further there is an issue of the delivery and discount for the used model, as well as the consideration of the real extras value as many of them in DIY approach are significantly cheaper comparing to the unreasonably costly factory options.
Lets assume 10% discount on the used model and leave DIY considerations aside and we arrive to the comparison:

45 k used, with all the risks and waste of time
52 k new delivered and commisioned with guarantee and no any real risk

Does it really pay off ?




Victor

 

[billmacfarlane]

Don\'t touch them with a bargepole.

It the company is that bad at sending you info , business is either booming or they are a truly awful outfit. Either ways I wouldn't give them my cash. Go to one that treats you like a valued customer.

 

[Rob_Webb]

There does seem to be a strange force at work here. Usually, free-market dynamics only create this kind of situation when there is an acute shortage of the desired new product, leading to 2nd hand prices approaching or even overtaking the new price. The best recent example I can thyink of was the new Porsche 968 Turbo which listed at around £90k but with a loooong waiting list - but you could pick up a hardly-used second hand one for £100k+!

The confusing thing here is that I don't think there is an acute shortage of boats is there? Maybe, like the predictions about housing, we are about to see a bit of a 'correction' in the market. And if you pile on the effect of the 1000s more redundancies announced this week amongst the professional population who typically buy these shiny new toys, maybe some sanity will return to the second-hand market too?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Roughly speaking

Having looked at the spec of the Hanse 311 on the Hanse website, I could easily spend over £10K extra on a new one (without getting esoteric). How about (roughly)

Liferaft £1000
Spinnaker, pole, sheets, guys, spinny winches £2000
Light weather 150% genoa £1250
GPS, VHF, Wind instrus, £1000
Inflatable and outboard, £1000
Storm jib, Inner forestay to set it, £500
Second bilge pump, fitted £500
Third row of reef points in mainsail £100
Second battery, fitted, with wiring and charging arrangements £500
Masthead tri-colour, fitted £250
Midships spring cleats, fitted £250
Hot water, fitted £1000 (total guess)
Shore power, fitted £500 (total guess)
25lb CQR, 30m chain spliced to 30m warp £500
18lb Danforth, 5m chain spliced to 30m warp £200
Ensign and staff £50
6 mooring warps, 6 fenders £200
Danbouy, lifering, drogue, light, holders £250
RORC flare pack, £150
Jackstays, £50
Foghorn, bosun's chair, anchor ball, motoring cone £75
Spare impeller, fuel filter, oil filter, alternator drive belt £50
= £11375

And that's without paying delivery, commissioning and antifouling.

 

[rogerroger]

Re: another naughty idea

get some mates to go round on separate occasions and offer about 50% of the asking price.

You then offer 75% which now seems very attractive!

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk