Is it me? or a re 2nd hand boats overpriced?

[sailbadthesinner]

I have been looking at second hand boat prices. Having figured for the cost of a posh wedding i could maybe get a boat instead. It goes against all my ideas to actually buy I normally rent. This is beacause
my time is very constrained,
I am not practical
My other half prefers the med,
i live far from the sea
I can be in atherns as soon as Port solent

But recently took Mrs and friend to Peelyweely. Ooh this is nice
what a nice bay. Mrs starts thinking little boat in bayt may not be too bad.

However looking at boats for sale I am staggered at what some owners are looking for. Eg a Hustler 30 1970 £18500. Were they this much new in 1970?

A contessa 32 1973. Good boat I am sure but £28500? The thing is 29 years old.

I would be interested to hear or this a very old hat rant?

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[Aries]

Boats are not like cars, so they do not devalue. Consider a boat more as a house in terms of value - well maybe thats a bit over the top.
Boats tend to maintain their initial selling price - particularly if they are looked after.
Our boat was built in 1981. It has been very well maintained and has lots of new parts and goodies on it. Rigging, mast, boom, sails and engine have all been replaced, twice in the case of the sails. Price wise, it would probably sell for the same price as it was when new. This applies to many other boats that have caring owners.
I remember when we were first buying 8 years ago. Most of the boats we saw had not been prepared for selling and some were definately overpriced. However, there is a lot of bartering to be done when buying a boat. The survey will reveal (hopefully) any shortcomings, so they perhaps would be negotiable, as will how long the boat has been for sale and how desparate the owner is to sell. A 10 to 20% reduction is possible.
Fundamentally you buy what you like. As soon as we sat on the boat we have now we knew it was right for us. It was priced at 50% more than we wanted to pay, but we negotiated and agreed what we both accepted was reasonable - and 8 years later..., well thats history.

Aries

 

[jimi]

As far as I'm concerned boats & everything to do with them are well overpriced! However the laws of supply & demand dictate prices .. not commonsense .. unfortunately!!

 

[Guest]

So buy a new one.
Whadya mean there even more expensive?
QED

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Is it me? or are 2nd hand boats overpriced?

I accept much of that biut still my jaw drops when i see some prices.
boats are not like cars in what way?
you travel in them, they hqave components that wear and much more likely to have been serviced either infrequently or by a well meaning amateur.
I know supply is more limited but i still donot see how a boat can command its sale price 30 years on. I just really donot see it. obviously it has the one good thing that you donot depreciate, so supposedly it is more affordable, but it does seem a very strange set of affairs.
Another point. it seems that this really applies to the old boats. ex charter bendytoys can be picked up at much less than original price.

I am looking at nicholsons at the mo.
i need help
i need someone to talk me out of it!!!!!

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[poter]

Re: Is it me? or are 2nd hand boats overpriced?

No its not you Most boats are overpriced... and some like Westerly, Moody, Carter, and Nics. demand a premium. Why? I don't know maybe its fashion or the possible misconception 'They don't build boats like they used to'
There is certainly a mystique surrounding Yachts, and one ends up paying for it, rather like classic cars.

I am in the same position as yourself and have looked at many Yachts, mostly dogs, I think at the end of the day you drive the best bargain you can.

However in the end once you are out on the sea with your own Yacht, the pleasure overcomes any thoughts regarding cost. IMHO


good luck.


poter.

 

[pvb]

You don\'t seriously believe...

You don't seriously believe that anyone pays the asking price, do you? When the boat's been on the market, without offers, for 6 months or so, you'll find that reality starts to dawn in the vendor's mind. Most secondhand boats are realistically available at a hell of a lot less than their advertised prices.

 

[david_e]

Re: You don\'t seriously believe...

I would like to agree with you but it seems not to matter to some folk who have had their boats on the market for a year or more. Often wonder whether they are serious about a sale at all, in general it is the broker who will hold out for the price IMHO.

 

[david_e]

Re: PW

Peely Weely is very nice, welcome to the Welsh Riviera! Boat prices there are as dear as anywhere (mine excepted of course, tiz one of the cheapest in Europe for it's year).

The only thing you might want to consider is the waiting list for a berth.

My findings are that there is not a great deal of logic to used boat prices, the overall price rule applies; It is worth someone is prepared to pay and someone is prepared to accept. Old Nichs need lots of tlc so someone somewhere will be ready to sell cheap, just keep making low offers, bound to find out what the common denominator is at some stage.

 

[escape]

Re: You don\'t seriously believe...

I can only speak of personal experience but I have over the last 15 yrs sold 5 yachts including a Jag 25,J 24,First 35,Seamaster 925 and in every case I sold the boat for more than I paid and within 5% of asking price.
All except the J24 were sold by Dickies of Bangor and they prvided a great service keeping puchaser and vender happy but remote from each other.
I always put the boat on the market in Oct. and sold by March.
I also cleaned the boat every other weekend and tried to leave it looking like a show boat.
I think the asking price for say a Mooderly 30 will be roughly the same but only the A1 boats will sell at asking price and poor boats alot less.I don't think that by and large you will get the A1 at big discount,IMHO.

 

[pvb]

Quite right...

You won't ever get an A1 boat at a big discount. BUT, the vast majority of secondhand boats are presented in crappy condition. If I was a yacht broker, I wouldn't even consider handling them. You're to be applauded for preparing your boats carefully and then keeping them clean and tidy - that's why you got close to your asking price.

 

[yoda]

Blame the market economy. Supply and demand rules. If you don't think it's worth it don't pay. There are some good value boats out there but you may need to look around and ask a few people where to go for a bargin. My neighbour bought his boat in Denmark for a good deal less than a UK boat and got a much nicer example into the bargin.

Yoda

 

[pvb]

Here\'s a good example...

Here's a good example of the constantly changing target of the "asking price". Check out page 134 of YM July. South West Yacht Brokers Group have some featured yachts, with pictures, and some general listings. Compare the prices! Sigma 362 with pic £46950, without pic £47950. Westerly Berwick with pic £25995, without pic £27500. Fisher 30 with pic £36950, without pic £37950. Dehler 25 with pic £26500, without pic £26950. Moral? Always buy a boat which has a pic!

 

[JeremyF]

The second hand market price is surely largely determined by the state of the new boat market, at least those in the £30k - £60k bracket.

Over the last few years the new prices of the Jen/Bav/Ben range have been falling in real terms, and this has a direct effect on the price of second-hand.

Some Moody and Westerley prices have not reflected this reality and you still see silly prices on 10 year old yachts. Why on earth would someone want to spend £42k on a 1989 Moody 31, when they can have a new Jen/Bav/Ben for another £10k?

It will be interesting to see what happens as the £ softens against the €, as a precurser to the UK entry. Jen/Bav/Ben will start to increase their prices (Bav are already announcing +6%). This might reverse the recent slide in second-hand prices.

However I guess the real driver of prices will be the state of consumer confidence. With today's Worldcom news, this may well cause continual stock market depression. Bank of England looks set to increase interest rates, and house prices will stop increasing. Methinks there wont be many new buyers at SBS

Jeremy Flynn

 

[pandroid]

I dont agree that boats are like houses, with one exception.

Traditionally, boat bulding has been a cottage industry, with few economies of scale. Where builders have scaled, they have often overreached and gone bust (Rogers, Westerly etc). This has kept new boat prices going up slightly more than inflation, which in turn has kept the second-hand market 'cooking'.

I'm worried now that builders like Jen/Ben/Bav have got scaling right, and the real prices consequently low, Boats might become 'commodity' items, like, in effect, cars, which in turn starts to kill the second-hand market. Boats are generally built for a lifetime of 10-20 years, rather than cars, which are built for 5, so depreciation will be slower, but it still must set in.

Some builders (like HR) deliberately 'stick' at a certain number of boats a year (adjusting their prices to control demand). As long as demand exceeds supply, the second-hand market will be bouyant.

For others, will we see car-like depreciation setting in now? Has the market changed?

I suppose the main defence is that there are so many crapply looked after boats around. If yours is better looked after, it will always sell. (Like a house - oops, another thing in common.....)

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: PW

I have a mooring at anglesey which is obviously considerably posher than peely

no actually i went there for the peely time a few weeks ago
it seems great
the launch method for all those speed boats seems efficient and the club house looked very decent
I would keep the boat in anglesey
I am looking for something to get me over to ireland and maybe up to scotland, summer only. fancy stretching me legs a bit once i have yacht master.

Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[AndrewB]

... Or maybe quite wrong?

Its a constant puzzle to me why is there such an enormous premium on a "well-presented" yacht? Why are buyers so keen to pay more for shiny plastic and gleaming varnish, things that really are not so very difficult to restore? - if indeed its that important.

A well-used yacht quickly loses that boat-show gleam. The GRP dulls, the upholstery gets worn. But the owner will have had more incentive to keep the sailing equipment not only well maintained but properly and fully specified, with the poor quality stuff replaced. The engine will be well used - and don't think low hours is a good sign on a diesel.

Avoid neglected, yes, unless you are a DIY enthusiast; but "well-presented" is just a euphemism for an overpriced ladies yacht.

 

[Guest]

Re: ... Or maybe quite wrong?

Its more than skin deep.
If engine oil is clean and fresh,winches greased and running free,running rigging unfrayed,sails clean and well repaired then the boat is well presented.
Its unlikely you will get this on a dull grp.flaky varnish boat.
We also live in a convenience market and people want things on a plate.
Finally we all know who makes the final decision..SWMBO...and the smell of deisel,dirty decks and a blokish environment aint gonna wash.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I agree with everything you said - one thing to add - Inflation also looked after the prices of the old Westerly type boat. Today there is no inflation, so we will see the real value of money shown much more transparently and thus actual drops in values.

Your comments on scale are probably correct, and that they have acheived equilibrium. However what they have done is reduced to the absolute limit of safety the specifications and thus the longlivity of the boats. I believe that on the plastic fantastic type, we will see an extremly high depreciation rate set in as people realise that they are designed for a limited life. We only need a small recession and a few extra on the market and the price of thes will plummit.

 

[david_e]

New Yacht Sales

The sales of new (and used) Hanse yachts must be going well. Twice now within the last year I have requested price details (not a brochure, downloaded that from the web) from the Northern dealer to receive nothing. This is despite them saying they have new boats in stock, used models available and promising to despatch all details that day!! Suspect that I may have to grovel for the opportunity to buy one )