johndove
Well-Known Member
Yes or no?
Is it legal for a single handed skipper to sleep?
- Thread starter johndove
- Start date
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
No
johndove
Well-Known Member
So how can they have, allow, encourage races single handed?
prv
Well-Known Member
I believe the RYA's policy is not to. At least, not to organise or sponsor any themselves, though they'll be supportive of other people's.
Pragmatically, the odds of hitting anything while asleep are pretty low, and most of what they might hit are made of thousands of tons of steel and will hardly notice. So although it's not strictly legal, there's never been much interest in enforcing that.
Pete
GHA
Well-Known Member
Which countries laws?
It contravenes the irpcs, rule 5.
But well offshore with a decent radar alarm and ais the odds of hitting something are probably not much more than with a sleepy crew member tucked behind the sprayhood. It's not a big problem so no one is particularly bother about it.
ceproof87
Member
According to international law this activity is in violation. So the answer os "NO"
macd
Well-Known Member
The regs require that watch be kept by all available means. If you're asleep, that's the most basic means unavaible. AP Herbert might have made such a case.
More realistically, which is worse: being alert when awake; or a sleep-deprived zombie most of the time?
More realistically, which is worse: being alert when awake; or a sleep-deprived zombie most of the time?
dunedin
Well-Known Member
No
The practicality was though that small, slow fragile sailing boats were only a danger to themselves if they got it wrong.
This issue started to get profile many years back when OSTAR boats suddenly went supersized - Vendedi 13 etc - becoming unmanned ships and a big danger to others. OSTAR rules were changed to limit the excess.
Feels like these huge / fast boats are going to bring a change in the enforcement of the regs which could hugely disadvantage the many amateurs harmlessly sailing small, slow, fragile boats
The practicality was though that small, slow fragile sailing boats were only a danger to themselves if they got it wrong.
This issue started to get profile many years back when OSTAR boats suddenly went supersized - Vendedi 13 etc - becoming unmanned ships and a big danger to others. OSTAR rules were changed to limit the excess.
Feels like these huge / fast boats are going to bring a change in the enforcement of the regs which could hugely disadvantage the many amateurs harmlessly sailing small, slow, fragile boats
Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
Moot point, I think there isa good argument that having an AIR alarm and a Radar proximity alarm is keeping a lookout in calm conditions. If conditions deteriorate which renders the radar as unreliable then sleeping is probably going to put you on the wrong side of the law.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Didn't know this until looking a wiki just now, it's not international law, but each country signed up implements the same set of regulations.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Yes - tucked up at anchor etc, according to the wording of the OP's question!
No - underway, according to the letter of the law.
Yes - practically, with Radar/AIS alarms and better still a CARD automatic radar detector, and of course it entirely depends where you are on the watery surface of things.
Yes - if you're small enough to be the only vessel likely to suffer in a collision, which event is normally incredibly unlikely (away from concentrations of water-bourn activity).
This doesn't concern me directly, as I'm not likely to join the hallowed ranks of true ocean-crossing singlehanders any time soon, but I prefer a world in which people are entitled to take responsible decisions for themselves rather than one in which everyone is at risk of being prosecuted by technocrats for minisculely-irrelevant transgressions of the law.
No - underway, according to the letter of the law.
Yes - practically, with Radar/AIS alarms and better still a CARD automatic radar detector, and of course it entirely depends where you are on the watery surface of things.
Yes - if you're small enough to be the only vessel likely to suffer in a collision, which event is normally incredibly unlikely (away from concentrations of water-bourn activity).
This doesn't concern me directly, as I'm not likely to join the hallowed ranks of true ocean-crossing singlehanders any time soon, but I prefer a world in which people are entitled to take responsible decisions for themselves rather than one in which everyone is at risk of being prosecuted by technocrats for minisculely-irrelevant transgressions of the law.
fireball
Well-Known Member
It doesn't concern me either - I think it rather depends on the term "sleep" and what sort of vessel you're in.
If you're in a 60' steel ocean craft, set off from Portsmouth, put the AP on and go down below, change into PJ's and tuck yourself up in bed then that's going to be treated differently to someone in a 25'er catching a quick 10 minute Zzz on a x-channel trip with AIS and/or Radar alarms on.
The first one is irresponsible and the second is pragmatic.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure about those who say that it is only the single-hander who is likely to suffer. A racing machine T-boning a merchant vessel or more probably a deep-sea fishing vessel at 20+ knots would make quite a big hole; the sides of ships aren't all that thick! OK, unlikely to cause loss of life on the merchant vessel, but quite likely to cause damage sufficient to require dry-docking. And then the probability of getting rigging in the propellors... I guess it might even sink a fishing vessel.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I single hand short voyages, single handing is not illegal. Failure to keep a lookout is.
The Skipper of a small yacht sailing a short single handed passage with no intention of falling asleep, who becomes fatigued and falls asleep at the wheel is doing something illegal, l but not intentionally.
The skipper of a yacht who sets of on a voyage or race with the intention of going to sleep because the duration of the voyage it is not possible to complete without sleep is not only breaking the law but sailing his vessel with a reckless disregard for the safety of others.
My objection is pointless because nothing will be done. The event organizers and the Sponsors who provide the money. Know full well it is illegal, and don’t care. The Media who cover the events only care about the sound bight.
Nothing will change until there is a fatality. Hopefully the Fatality will not be the crew of another small vessel. Or a rescue personnel.
When it happens I hope the event organizers and their sponsors are held accountable.
The media will simply switch stories and condemn the single handed sailor they applauded the day before.
The collision the other day mentioned in other threads is proof it can happen. This guy was perhaps just unlucky. The other competitors were doing just exactly the same as he was.
They are all abdicating their own responsibility and relying on others to conform to the rules regarding lookout and good seamanship.
Unfortunately for him he met a cargo ship which was just as negligent as he was. Not a big deal for the ship probably did not even dent it. And nobody had to put their own safety on the line to rescue the single hander.
The Skipper of a small yacht sailing a short single handed passage with no intention of falling asleep, who becomes fatigued and falls asleep at the wheel is doing something illegal, l but not intentionally.
The skipper of a yacht who sets of on a voyage or race with the intention of going to sleep because the duration of the voyage it is not possible to complete without sleep is not only breaking the law but sailing his vessel with a reckless disregard for the safety of others.
My objection is pointless because nothing will be done. The event organizers and the Sponsors who provide the money. Know full well it is illegal, and don’t care. The Media who cover the events only care about the sound bight.
Nothing will change until there is a fatality. Hopefully the Fatality will not be the crew of another small vessel. Or a rescue personnel.
When it happens I hope the event organizers and their sponsors are held accountable.
The media will simply switch stories and condemn the single handed sailor they applauded the day before.
The collision the other day mentioned in other threads is proof it can happen. This guy was perhaps just unlucky. The other competitors were doing just exactly the same as he was.
They are all abdicating their own responsibility and relying on others to conform to the rules regarding lookout and good seamanship.
Unfortunately for him he met a cargo ship which was just as negligent as he was. Not a big deal for the ship probably did not even dent it. And nobody had to put their own safety on the line to rescue the single hander.
prv
Well-Known Member
The question was "is it legal?". The answer is still no, even when in practice it doesn't much matter.
Pete
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
How do organisers get away with ocean-crossing RTW singlehander races?
sailor211
Well-Known Member
It breaches IRPCS not any law that i can specify. I also breach IPRCS mid Ocean with my RADAR turned off to save power, as that is not using all available means. As does any ship that turns off class B AIS in the Solent
You will be criticized for sleeping and for not having the radar on. Very contravention of IPRCS are prosecuted.
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
Jamesuk
Well-Known Member
Yes- international waters! If you slept in coastal waters 'we the public might get you sectioned for sleeping at the wheel' under the mental health act
GHA
Well-Known Member
Disagree. Ignoring the fast racers and coastal , for the rest of us single handing cross ocean, well off the shelf using both radar and ais with alarms there is just so little data available coming to any kind of conclusion is not possible. I´ve done it offshore for weeks at a time, there may be a ship out there not transmitting ais, the chances of come across on must be extremely small. With radar to spot the squalls or a very unlikely yacht the odds are well stacked in your favour. Reckless disregard for others safety just isn´t happening.
Coastal is a different ball game altogether.
