Stemar
Well-Known Member
That's why I always fancied a Southerly. Not that I was every likely to afford one.
Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?
- Thread starter Boo2
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Refueler
Well-Known Member
Never forget going into Bembridge years ago ... and on the 'beach' to left - had the cafe at road end - as you open out into the harbour - big Southerly sitting there .... ladder over and family enjoying the day ...
geem
Well-Known Member
who is talking about survival conditions. Who on this forum has ever been in a hurricane type winds and seas? Everything else should be survivable in a good boat. Many people will see strong winds in costal sailing but not the mountainous seas that go with it.
Long keel boats perform poorly up wind. The most efficient keel is a deep fin. Some other variations of keel get close to deep fin keel performance but none better it. Many moderate deep fin keel designs heave-to perfectly in a gale, mine included. Not that we have ever needed to but we carry a Jordan series drogue for survival type conditions. I hope we never need it.
Long keel boat can be a great choice for downwind sailing like the East To West Atlantic crossing. They track well down wind so yaw little, are easily steered by vane gear. I once had a drive under engine of a Rival 38. Semi long keel. I couldn't believe the size of the turning circle on that boat. Our own 44ft fin keel boat of 1977 design turns in 1/4 of the space. For handling in tight situation long keel boats leave a lot to be desired. I am not knocking anybody who has one. Some are the prettiest boats around, they are just not for me
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Now these are beautiful 
ryanroberts
Well-Known Member
Now these are beautiful
Not sure I like that much salt water in my cuppa though.
dom
Well-Known Member
Now these are beautiful
You do realise that Anderson 22s, Island Packets, and Rivals are much faster and more seaworthy ?
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Dunno about pitching but my last 2 long keeled boats rolled like pigs down wind. Hove too beautifully though.
I crewed a Bowman 45 for a while & some would consider that a blue water cruiser. That was hopeless down wind . No way would I want to sail it on an ocean crossing with the wind up the chuff for days on end. The owner changed it for a short finned light displacement boat which he much preferred . Lot faster as well.
I crewed a Bowman 45 for a while & some would consider that a blue water cruiser. That was hopeless down wind . No way would I want to sail it on an ocean crossing with the wind up the chuff for days on end. The owner changed it for a short finned light displacement boat which he much preferred . Lot faster as well.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Spacious boats may be OK in a marina but my son came back from sailing in a Hanse 445 for a weekend. Said it was a georgous boat to sail on deck, but going below under sail up wind was a nightmare. Large spaces to cross with little to hold on to. Heads difficult to use upwind. Definitely a marina dwellers boat or a coastal weekender ;which is what the owner has used it for so far. He really loves its, speed,( has clocked 17kts but sustained nearly 15kts which is good for a cruising boat) ease of use & maneuverability. But he has only used it for couple of weeks at a time & max 30 hour trips. I just cannot get over a boat with 2 TVs on it. Cannot really imagine long term live aboard without some modification.
That being said a lot of Hanse owners do & make various mods & say they make good blue water sailing boats. It could be that they have not experienced older long keel style designs & the reverse can be said of long keel owners not actually having tried fin keel boats of the modern era. Each side just lets prejudice guide them & sneer at the rest. You can sense that by comments like " wide arsed sterns " etc etc
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doug748
Well-Known Member
You do realise that Anderson 22s, Island Packets, and Rivals are much faster and more seaworthy ?
Nail on head there. You could add Bavaria, Hanse and the rest
A large number of owners think they have an IMOCA 60 because the adverts suggest it. Flocks of them still plodding Around the Island in 10 hours.
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Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
They are nothing-- my mates' Centaur had a canting bilge keel long before the Imocas did.You do realise that Anderson 22s, Island Packets, and Rivals are much faster and more seaworthy ?
Well it flapped about so much he could hear it clonking when rolling on the mooring. This year he has had the boat ashore & tried bolting it up AGAIN
ryanroberts
Well-Known Member
If this were twitter, someone would already be #beautifulwithanykeel and #allboatsmatter by now.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Its actually one of the reasons I like the Eclipse 43 ... it may be volumous - but being 'old school' you are not lost for something to hold onto ...
Refueler
Well-Known Member
They are nothing-- my mates' Centaur had a canting bilge keel long before the Imocas did.
Well it flapped about so much he could hear it clonking when rolling on the mooring. This year he has had the boat ashore & tried bolting it up AGAIN
Who was it told me that Centaurs never had a keel problem ?? (Not you ... !)
He needs the standard 1980's extra rovings cure that was common.
pvb
Well-Known Member
They are nothing-- my mates' Centaur had a canting bilge keel long before the Imocas did.
Well it flapped about so much he could hear it clonking when rolling on the mooring. This year he has had the boat ashore & tried bolting it up AGAIN
Sure it was a Centaur?
Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
Never in hurricane force, F12, but four times in winds well over F10 in the open sea. Three times with a long-keeler, once with a short/lifting keel. Hove to with the short keel and one of the longs. Ran downwind with a drogue on one of the longs. None was any fun, breaking seas well over 8m and a terrifying night hove to in a long-keel with waves breaking over the boat. Always amazes me how people hold such firm opinions, based on second of third hand information and when most of their cruising is done from the comfort of their couch.
Reserve buoyancy: many of the traditional type do not have sufficient reserve buoyancy in their stern. We were regularly pooped in a 43' classic running off - the wave would simply walk over the stern and right up to the doghouse. We would be sitting chest-high in water; after a while we got pretty good at predicting which one was next. In the fifties and sixties, Brit. boats in particular liked buoyant bows and skinny tails. The thing with buoyancy is, I believe, that it must be properly distributed for and aft - a sharp nose and a wide tail are equally dangerous.
Rolling: 3500 miles downwind in a classic and deep long-keel - the thing rolled like a pig through 100 degr. - all the way. My present shallow draft long-keel barely budges going downwind and runs like on tracks. A
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Sailfree
Well-Known Member
They dont last 5 minutes. Pity many last years on the Charter market with intensive use.
We are currently living on our 2005 Jeanneau 43DS In Portugal.
Manufacturers dont know what people want - everyone knows that many on here want long keel heavy boat as they used to make them. Pity these are not those in the buying market.
We are currently living on our 2005 Jeanneau 43DS In Portugal.
Manufacturers dont know what people want - everyone knows that many on here want long keel heavy boat as they used to make them. Pity these are not those in the buying market.
matt1
Well-Known Member
Think it was me that said “wide arsed” and the irony is that I have a “wide arsed” Hanse that I hope to do an AZAB and / or Atlantic circuit in. I just wonder how wide we can go and question the aesthetics. I note the new Hallberg Rassy 40c has a wider ransom than the 44 ,which itself was only introduced a few years ago. I get that twin rudders make it controllable but am not sure it’s “pretty”. FWIW my Hanse is amazing. I’ve no idea how something so wide at the aft end can have such a neutral helm at 35 degrees of heel. It defies logic for a single rudder.
Although very safe, one of the least pleasant boats I’ve sailed was a Contessa 32. Cramped and rolled like a pig downwind.
By contrast my 40’ Hanse is the easiest boat I’ve sailed
Wansworth
Well-Known Member
Bilge keels are normally fairly bad and in some cases just steel plates now twin keels are a diff end kettle of fish David Feltham was very good at small boat design and incorporated twin keels which sailed as well as the fin keel versions.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
I remember the article in PBO many years ago - pitting a fin keel version against the BK version of same boat ...
But shall we leave out the variation of BK's ? Its bad enough the arguments about other keels !!
Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
Shame on you, for using the "A" word. Beam provides stability, both right way up and upside down and so it lets you save ballast and keep the boat light. The beam is moved aft to keep the entry angles narrow. Short and simple. Weight is the enemy of fast and we all want to go fast, as in faster than what is commonly referred to as hull speed. To do this we are happy to sail across oceans with boats that have less than optimal ultimate stability, such as super-wide monos, multihulls and even good ol' Slocum's wide and longkeel Spray, which would have happily shown you her bottom once beyond a 100 degr. We get all exited about discussing situations that 99.9% are not likely to experience and all marinas are full of "blue water" boats that will never make it out of the silted water of the estuary they are kept in. We fill our little tub with all the stuff we like: decent cooking gear and proper crockery to eat it off, a nicely stocked wine cellar, bicycles to explore where we go and loads of books to keep us entertained. And, we go places and I do try to make the lump sail as fast as I can. Everything is just semantics. A