Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?

[Baggywrinkle]

For many ARC boats such as you describe, it's a one way trip for well heeled owners, a nice downwind jolly with a safety net. What percentage continue to live aboard permanently going it alone, as opposed to those who pay to have them returned to Europe either by delivery crews or shipped?

Being realistic, the majority of folks who want to be long term cruisers are looking for used boats, costing a lot less. Most don't buy a fast flat bottomed high aspect fin and spade rudder, they go for a slower more traditional design with longer keel and skegged rudder. May surprise some people just how many old steel boats, many home built, are out there sailing more miles than many dream of.

Boat choice is IMHO primarily influenced by budget. Remove budget constraints and every long-term cruiser would be in a new HR, Oyster, Swan, Amel or equivalent. There wouldn't be a traditional long keeler among them - except perhaps the odd IP .

The next influence, after budget, is perception. Not true in every case, but it certainly plays an important part - no one ever has a problem defending their choice when they buy a long keeled, heavy displacement boat - it's accepted wisdom as can be seen by this thread - the old addage "no-one ever got fired for buying IBM" comes to mind. But all is not plain sailing as highlighted in the posts from Laminar Flow about reserve bouyancy, rolling through 100° etc.

There is no reason why a Jeanneau, Bavaria, Beneteau or Hanse can' be used for long distance cruising - they are also some of the most popular ARC brands and the most popular boats worldwide. Defending this choice on an internet forum or a sailing club bar is an uphill struggle however.

This argument will run and run until the old long keelers eventually become too expensive to maintain, the old people sailing them die off, and the global nomads move on to the next generation of boats - but by then there will be cruisers in the latest racing skiffs on hydrofoils, modified for cruising, crossing the oceans having arguments with the new generation of "traditional" boats - which are the AWBs of today. It's part of the human condition, as we age we become less comfortable with change, we cling on to long-held beliefs and out of date personal experience.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I am going to be odd man out I think ... I quite like the dinette berth on small boats rather than a skinny sea berth ...

When I delivered that Match 35 ... I hated the berths in it and that aft berth felt so claustrophobic ...

If you mean one that can convert a C shaped settee to a double with the table as a 'lee screen' then yes, very much better, but the one in the pic doesn't seem to offer that.

I'm probably the wrong person to debate this though, because I've just realised that I've hardly ever sat down and had a proper meal at a yacht table, ten times at most - however memorable.

 

[Refueler]

We sail as a couple and the long settees with leecloths make excellent sea berths and within easy calling distance if the one on watch needs help. There is a quarter berth in the passageway but narrower and too close to the engine if we're motoring.

My Wife is not a boaty person and only likes flat calm !! So most of my sailing is with friends. SR25 is the typical 1970's twin cabin job ... dinette double opposite galley in main cabin ... then twin vee berth fwd.

Because usually I rig the cockpit table for nav as well as being able to swing it to centre for dining - the dinette often stays down as a double. I spent years on ships with Officers beds fore and aft ... so got into habit of sleeping across at diagonal when rolling ... crew beds were across the ship ! The double dinette lets me do that on my boat. I HATE ROLLING !! I can live with pitching and even yawing - but rolling UGH !!

 

[Refueler]

I agree that 'evolution' plays a part in all we do ... whether its RC models from balsa evolving in to the foam versions we have today ... or boats from Long Keel to Fin etc.

I can remember when the Ford Sierra hit the street - UGH .. look at that upturned Jelly mould .... but soon all cars followed the idea.

 

[geem]

Oh, I do like a good scrap about old vs new ... so who's to blame then? Why aren't boats made like they used to be?

Is it because the designers and builders have abandoned seaworthiness and "a sea kindly motion"? Is it their fault? Do they think a handhold every 3 inches is now superfluous?

Or is it the fault of modern sailors who don't want to venture any further than the next marina? Who just sit in their cockpit surrounded by wheels and electronics sipping G&T from the fridge and never going anywhere? Have we all collectively lost the spirit of adventure that caused great men like Moitessier to venture round the world in a skip with sails?

Of course not. Design, understanding and material science has moved on - millions of man and computer hours have been accumulated since "traditional" hulls were splashed. There are more small boats crossing oceans now than ever before, yet the stories of boats falling apart mid-ocean are few and far between - boats falling to pieces was par for the course in the 60s and 70s - most of the fleet in the 1968 Sunday Times Golden Globe Race fell to pieces - could you imagine the horror if the current ARC had the same rate of attrition?

The popular Centaur needed its hull reinforcing to stop the keels flapping like a seals flippers, and even the beloved Contessa 32 had a problem with U-bolts on the cap shrouds which suffered from fractured nuts.

Long keels are simply a result of the materials used to build boats at the time - wood - where there was no other way to get the ballast lower than to effectively extend the hull underwater, and narrow it to reduce buoyancy and ensure the ballast stayed low - they are certianly not that way because designers thought they were more seaworthy and safer than a modern fin keel design - they simply didn't have the materials to build modern fin keeled designs back then.

During the transition to fiberglass, I remember the concern my fathers generation had with these confounded fiberglass boats being moulded in two halves and glued together, they were concerned about the hulls poppping open like a clamshell if they ever got too stressed or hit anything, and the difficulty in repairing them in out-of-the way places - wood on the other hand was everywhere, as were shipwrights who knew how to use it.

A quick look at the ARC fleets shows a huge percentage of AWBs - fat arsed, fin keeled marina queens with solar, fridges, freezers, water makers and a host of other home comforts - even TVs - they have no right to be plying the worlds oceans and their owners ought to be told that what they really need is a narrow, heavy, cramped long keeler that smells of mildew and diesel and needs the bilges pumping out every 6 hours.

I'm obviously being provocative in this post, but if Sir Francis Chichester were to have his time again, I doubt he would now choose Gipsy Moth IV, I rather think he'd be on one of these fat arsed, fugly racing machines wearing a grin like a cheshire cat ? ? ? ....

View attachment 84164

I like your provocative post, but it begs the question, what is a unique about modern boats? My 40 year old boat has all the home conforts you mention (and some) they are not unique to modern boats only. We also have huge locker space that is missing on lots of modern boat designs. Does your modern world girdling AWB have space for a couple of sets of dive gear, a sailing rig for the dinghy, a paddleboard, three sets of kitesurfing gear, two outboard engines and fenders? On a 44ft hull does it have a work bench, a diesel generator and a walk in engine room? We see lots of AWBs here with fenders hanging over the stern when at anchor as they don't have locker space. I dont think modern designs have improved sailing. Modern production methods have reduced cost of manufacture. Bolt on keels are not an improvement over encapsulated lead they are just cheaper to build. Wide arse hulls provide form stability instead of ballast. Works great until you are in rough seas then you are thrown around by your form stability trying to lay to the shape of the sea.
Your suggestion that old boats leak and smell of diesel is silly. Have you never heard of a diesel leak on a modern boat? And as for water leaks, the Swedes we met here with a brand new Elan 38 that had crossed the Atlantic with a leaking keel, bailing every day would have a different view point on modern hull design I am sure. My 40 year old boat is neither cramped, narrow, smelly and doesn't need bilges pumping. Its not an AWB and its not long keel. Its a boat designed in an era when weather forecasting was poor, so they built boats to take a full gale, when proper teak was cheap so we have lots of it and when lead was used for keels because it was heavy and the best stuff around. So which bit of modern boat design is better?

 

[Graham376]

Boat choice is IMHO primarily influenced by budget. Remove budget constraints and every long-term cruiser would be in a new HR, Oyster, Swan, Amel or equivalent. There wouldn't be a traditional long keeler among them - except perhaps the odd IP .

There is no reason why a Jeanneau, Bavaria, Beneteau or Hanse can' be used for long distance cruising - they are also some of the most popular ARC brands and the most popular boats worldwide. Defending this choice on an internet forum or a sailing club bar is an uphill struggle however.

There's a contradiction there, your ideal group are in the main more traditional hulls with low aspect keels and skegged rudders whereas the second mass production group are the opposite. At a guess, I think more people going long distance with a moderate budget would rather have a second hand version of the first group.

I'm no lover of long keel narrow beam boats for myself but others like them. Rustlers and similar still fetch very good money. No-one should have to defend their choice unless buying something blatantly unsuitable for the task.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Will be off to Egypt in a few weeks time to play with some Topcat catamarans .... I do hope they have the latest models ...

... and no, someone hasn't glued the bows on upside down

 

[doug748]

It's not a dreadful thing for what it is but I don't see it thrashing around the Scottish Isles or beating up and down Channel in the peeing rain.

I just scrubbed a long moan about it's shortcomings - - nobody reads long posts and we all know already, if we had half a million to spend it would be on something else. Magnetic cupboard catches, sums it up

 

[Refueler]

I like your provocative post, but it begs the question, what is a unique about modern boats? My 40 year old boat has all the home conforts you mention (and some) they are not unique to modern boats only. We also have huge locker space that is missing on lots of modern boat designs. Does your modern world girdling AWB have space for a couple of sets of dive gear, a sailing rig for the dinghy, a paddleboard, three sets of kitesurfing gear, two outboard engines and fenders? On a 44ft hull does it have a work bench, a diesel generator and a walk in engine room? We see lots of AWBs here with fenders hanging over the stern when at anchor as they don't have locker space. I dont think modern designs have improved sailing. Modern production methods have reduced cost of manufacture. Bolt on keels are not an improvement over encapsulated lead they are just cheaper to build. Wide arse hulls provide form stability instead of ballast. Works great until you are in rough seas then you are thrown around by your form stability trying to lay to the shape of the sea.
Your suggestion that old boats leak and smell of diesel is silly. Have you never heard of a diesel leak on a modern boat? And as for water leaks, the Swedes we met here with a brand new Elan 38 that had crossed the Atlantic with a leaking keel, bailing every day would have a different view point on modern hull design I am sure. My 40 year old boat is neither cramped, narrow, smelly and doesn't need bilges pumping. Its not an AWB and its not long keel. Its a boat designed in an era when weather forecasting was poor, so they built boats to take a full gale, when proper teak was cheap so we have lots of it and when lead was used for keels because it was heavy and the best stuff around. So which bit of modern boat design is better?

Trouble is we are all biased regardless of how understanding we try to be.

I cannot help but recall two 'events' when considering modern vs old.

We all know of the Hunter boats from UK .. but then the invasion of Hunter Marine from USA - not to confuse the two.

Pal of mine who returned to sailing and spet time on my boat decided to get his own boat again. Previously years before he had a Moody 31. He asked me to look through adverts with him to see what was out there.
I found a Jeanneau 36 in west country that had all the gear .. looked a good buy .. asking about 80K ... I reckoned easily knock a few K of the price .. so said - try about 74K and setlle at about 75 - 76K ....
Mike went of to West Country and came back grinning ... Nice - excellent - its got radar .. plotter ... liferaft ... dinghy etc etc etc ... all nice and clean ... guy said yes to 75K.
So I think - jobs a good'un .. all done. Looking fwd to sailing it to Solent with him.

Few days later I get a call - Nige - just signed contract for new Hunter Marine 36 ... 110K all in ...

Mike are you crazy ?? Whats extra you spend to kit it out ?

He hated the boat ... no backstay meant shrouds cam back a long way at sides - he couldn't wing her properly .. everything was designed for the Wife in Marina in the cabin.
After 2 years he had locker lids not shutting properly, he had repairs made to various seacocks and fittings.
He often said - Nige - I should have bought that Jeanneau !

Finally he sold it on at a great loss .. took near 2 years to sell it.

He replaced it with an older traditional wheelhouse equipped Motor Sailer .... any complaints now ? ZERO.

OK - second event ...

Mike and I were topping up the diesel tank of my boat in a marina. In came a Hunter Marine boat of similar to what Mike had signed up for. He was all chuffed and Nige - look that's what I'm getting .. looks nice !

Marine boys who were berthing the boat for the sales broker ready for new owner made a hash of getting her in and hit the bathing platform on the opposite pontoon.
Next you saw the guys inspecting the opened up seam of the platform ...
Guy who was watching our diesel - shook his head and remarked - another one to fix !

Now I will don the Flak Jacket ...

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I like your provocative post, but it begs the question, what is a unique about modern boats? My 40 year old boat has all the home conforts you mention (and some) they are not unique to modern boats only. We also have huge locker space that is missing on lots of modern boat designs. Does your modern world girdling AWB have space for a couple of sets of dive gear, a sailing rig for the dinghy, a paddleboard, three sets of kitesurfing gear, two outboard engines and fenders? On a 44ft hull does it have a work bench, a diesel generator and a walk in engine room? We see lots of AWBs here with fenders hanging over the stern when at anchor as they don't have locker space. I dont think modern designs have improved sailing. Modern production methods have reduced cost of manufacture. Bolt on keels are not an improvement over encapsulated lead they are just cheaper to build. Wide arse hulls provide form stability instead of ballast. Works great until you are in rough seas then you are thrown around by your form stability trying to lay to the shape of the sea.
Your suggestion that old boats leak and smell of diesel is silly. Have you never heard of a diesel leak on a modern boat? And as for water leaks, the Swedes we met here with a brand new Elan 38 that had crossed the Atlantic with a leaking keel, bailing every day would have a different view point on modern hull design I am sure. My 40 year old boat is neither cramped, narrow, smelly and doesn't need bilges pumping. Its not an AWB and its not long keel. Its a boat designed in an era when weather forecasting was poor, so they built boats to take a full gale, when proper teak was cheap so we have lots of it and when lead was used for keels because it was heavy and the best stuff around. So which bit of modern boat design is better?

I'm sorry, not knowing which 44ft, 40 year old boat you have I cannot possibly pass comment - nor would I want to, because I might as well offer you a critique of your choice of life partner. The boat sounds lovely though, and well up to the job.

Best to just stick to the stereotypes and avoid getting personal. ?? ... Sorry if I offended you.

 

[Graham376]

I can remember when the Ford Sierra hit the street - UGH .. look at that upturned Jelly mould .... but soon all cars followed the idea.

I liked my XR 4 x 4 2.9 Sierra

 

[Refueler]

I liked my XR 4 x 4 2.9 Sierra

Bet you did ...

But I remember the Sierra when it came out ... people saw the typical square box car shape being changed to the 'upturned jelly mould' .. which was a term used by a motoring magazine at the time. I can remember articles saying that it would not catch on ... that Ford had made mistake ..

 

[Baggywrinkle]

It's not a dreadful thing for what it is but I don't see it thrashing around the Scottish Isles or beating up and down Channel in the peeing rain.

I just scrubbed a long moan about it's shortcomings - - nobody reads long posts and we all know already, if we had half a million to spend it would be on something else. Magnetic cupboard catches, sums it up

They are quite cool ....

An ingenious solution to positively catching drawers, cupboards and locker doors on boats. Closure is actuated by two attracting magnets. From outside only a stainless steel trimmed hole is visible. Single finger lift and pull to open. Suitable for interior installation. Right hand illustrated. LEFT is 193147

Catch Cupboard Magnetic S/S Trim R/H - Fishing Accessories

 

[geem]

I'm sorry, not knowing which 44ft, 40 year old boat you have I cannot possibly pass comment - nor would I want to, because I might as well offer you a critique of your choice of life partner. The boat sounds lovely though, and well up to the job.

Best to just stick to the stereotypes and avoid getting personal. ?? ... Sorry if I offended you.

Definitely not offended. I really did like your post. I guess the stereotype of new and old is hard to defeat. There are some great boats from lots of manufacturers built in the 80s that are strong, seaworthy and a pleasure to own. Most will have gone through major refits so many aspects are as good as new. I look at modern boats and just see modern boats. I dont see something I want to own very often. I genuinely don't see modern boats as better than lots of 1980s boats. When I see an old Swan circa 50-60 ft over here its eye candy. I dont have the same reaction in a similar length modern Hanse or Oyster. It just doesnt do it for me. We bought an older boat on purpose it wasn't a money issue. It was a conscious decision to buy a certain type of boat and we haven't regretted it

 

[doug748]

They are quite cool ....

Catch Cupboard Magnetic S/S Trim R/H - Fishing Accessories

Grand. When the crockery lands on the floor, it's time to reef

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Grand. When the crockery lands on the floor, it's time to reef

??? .... they are just as secure as normal latches, the magnets just close the latch instead of the pushy buttons or springs normally used, the magnets don't hold any load ??

 

[doug748]

??? .... they are just as secure as normal latches, the magnets just close the latch instead of the pushy buttons or springs normally used, the magnets don't hold any load ??

However, I will not be cashing my Premium Bonds to buy one and neither, I think, would you.

There used to be a bloke on here who got up everyone's nose because all he could say was: "Of course it is better - it's new" Every bit as tedious as the offshore battleship men. Be wary.

.

 

[geem]

However, I will not be cashing my Premium Bonds to buy one and neither, I think, would you.

There used to be a bloke on here who got up everyone's nose because all he could say was: "Of course it is better - it's new" Every bit as tedious as the offshore battleship men. Be wary.

.

Haha, made me laugh! If you are weekend sailing then modern boat with lots of space sat in marina makes sense. If you are doing battle with an ocean then a battleship is the way to go!

 

[oldgit]

Blimey and there was me thinking that all yachts had interiors resembling coal holes and smelt of old damp sacking.......

 

[Refueler]

However, I will not be cashing my Premium Bonds to buy one and neither, I think, would you.

There used to be a bloke on here who got up everyone's nose because all he could say was: "Of course it is better - it's new" Every bit as tedious as the offshore battleship men. Be wary.

.

Do they still do Premium Bonds ??? My Mum used to religiously buy a Bond for each son ever so often when we were kids .. I think I still have my grey Post Office book somewhere !!