Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?

Contemporary yacht design of any age has always been strongly influenced by racing rules and successes of its day; form the hollow bows and flat(ter) cotton sails of America over the bumpy lumpy, super wide, fat belly and uselessly pinched in and up sterns of the seventies. Now we have triangular planing wedges and the latest thing: round bowed scows for ocean racing (because they provide a larger planing surface). All of these are available as off the shelf cruising boats these days (yes, including the scows). Are they better cruising boats? I doubt it, they were never conceived a such. The builders are happy of course; marketing needs something new to sell and while there have been plenty of improvements over the granddaddy of yachts, the 19th century pilot and fishing smacks, not everything new is necessarily better. Racing rules do not generally produce better boats or even faster ones, for that matter (see seventies). I don't think there is a single subject about which more rubbish has been written than the speed of yachts. Now that racing designs have taken such a pronounced departure from the "normal" type of boat, I think we should all just relax and get on with the business of cruising whatever type we may have, if that is your stick. A.
 
Refueler said:
I am going to be odd man out I think ... I quite like the dinette berth on small boats rather than a skinny sea berth ...
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I really liked the little dinette on my Jouster. It was very useful to have a table where one or two people could sit without obstructing flow through the cabin. If I had the money - it would involve major surgery - I would fit one to my current boat too.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
Oh, I do like a good scrap about old vs new ... so who's to blame then? Why aren't boats made like they used to be?

Is it because the designers and builders have abandoned seaworthiness and "a sea kindly motion"? Is it their fault? Do they think a handhold every 3 inches is now superfluous?

Or is it the fault of modern sailors who don't want to venture any further than the next marina? Who just sit in their cockpit surrounded by wheels and electronics sipping G&T from the fridge and never going anywhere? Have we all collectively lost the spirit of adventure that caused great men like Moitessier to venture round the world in a skip with sails?

Of course not. Design, understanding and material science has moved on - millions of man and computer hours have been accumulated since "traditional" hulls were splashed. There are more small boats crossing oceans now than ever before, yet the stories of boats falling apart mid-ocean are few and far between - boats falling to pieces was par for the course in the 60s and 70s - most of the fleet in the 1968 Sunday Times Golden Globe Race fell to pieces - could you imagine the horror if the current ARC had the same rate of attrition?

The popular Centaur needed its hull reinforcing to stop the keels flapping like a seals flippers, and even the beloved Contessa 32 had a problem with U-bolts on the cap shrouds which suffered from fractured nuts.

Long keels are simply a result of the materials used to build boats at the time - wood - where there was no other way to get the ballast lower than to effectively extend the hull underwater, and narrow it to reduce buoyancy and ensure the ballast stayed low - they are certianly not that way because designers thought they were more seaworthy and safer than a modern fin keel design - they simply didn't have the materials to build modern fin keeled designs back then.

During the transition to fiberglass, I remember the concern my fathers generation had with these confounded fiberglass boats being moulded in two halves and glued together, they were concerned about the hulls poppping open like a clamshell if they ever got too stressed or hit anything, and the difficulty in repairing them in out-of-the way places - wood on the other hand was everywhere, as were shipwrights who knew how to use it.

A quick look at the ARC fleets shows a huge percentage of AWBs - fat arsed, fin keeled marina queens with solar, fridges, freezers, water makers and a host of other home comforts - even TVs - they have no right to be plying the worlds oceans and their owners ought to be told that what they really need is a narrow, heavy, cramped long keeler that smells of mildew and diesel and needs the bilges pumping out every 6 hours.

I'm obviously being provocative in this post, but if Sir Francis Chichester were to have his time again, I doubt he would now choose Gipsy Moth IV, I rather think he'd be on one of these fat arsed, fugly racing machines wearing a grin like a cheshire cat ? ? ? ....

View attachment 84164
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"Or is it the fault of modern sailors who don't want to venture any further than the next marina? Who just sit in their cockpit surrounded by wheels and electronics sipping G&T from the fridge and never going anywhere? Have we all collectively lost the spirit of adventure that caused great men like Moitessier to venture round the world in a skip with sails"

I think builders of yachts these days concentrate on building Coastal Cruisers rather than Blue Water yachts. They don't worry about storage space, handholds, large water and fuel tanks. But they have large cabins and many...

I've forgotten what I was going to say! I got as far as the above and then the power went off. ? berth?s maybe....

I'm really surprised it was automatically posted for me!!.
 
coopec said:
"Or is it the fault of modern sailors who don't want to venture any further than the next marina? Who just sit in their cockpit surrounded by wheels and electronics sipping G&T from the fridge and never going anywhere? Have we all collectively lost the spirit of adventure that caused great men like Moitessier to venture round the world in a skip with sails"

I think builders of yachts these days concentrate on building Coastal Cruisers rather than Blue Water yachts. They don't worry about storage space, handholds, large water and fuel tanks. But they have large cabins and many...

I've forgotten what I was going to say! I got as far as the above and then the power went off. ? berth?s maybe....

I'm really surprised it was automatically posted for me!!.
Click to expand...

What exactly is a "blue water yacht"? ... is it a yacht that people use to cruise on, including the odd ocean crossing? - that makes even an Albin Vega a "blue water yacht" .... is it a liveaboard boat? or is it a construct used to differentiate the more expensive yachts from the cheaper mass-produced yachts? ... or is it a description of a yacht based on its equipment list? ....

Many argue that doing the ARC isn't blue water ... does one have to round Cape Horn or spend time in the southern ocean for their choice of transport to become "blue water"?

A very well respected yacht broker, who has extensive "blue water" experince himself described a 2003 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2 as ...

Blue water equipped, 3 cabin two head version of this fast, comfortable, spacious cruiser.

An ideal ARC family yacht, full details are in the specification section but her notable highlights include:

Hydrovane Self Steering
New Standing Rigging 2015
New Genoa 2015
In-Mast Furling
Electric Cockpit Winch
75 HP Yanmar Engine
Autostream Feathering Stainless Steel Prop
Bowthruster
Mastervolt Whisper 3.5 Generator
Webasto Heating
Raymarine Instruments, Plotter(s) and Radar
Rutland 914i Wind charger
Solar Panel
Bimini
6 Man Life Raft
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My personal experience is that the lines are blurring, and pretty much any modern production yacht can be taken across the worlds oceans with minimal risk of death - and most modern boats have different layouts dependent on intended use .... the charter layouts pack the boat with cabin space and beds, the owners versions usually sacrifice a cabin or two for galley space and storage.

In decades gone by, yachts were also generally smaller, 30ft was a good size, they started to get wet and uncomfortable around F4/5 .... modern yachts tend to be closer to 40ft or more and don't get wet and uncomfortable until F6/7 ... maybe even more.

I did a Croatian holiday in a 46ft Beneteau a while back, and was underway in a F6 with seastate rough. We were dry and comfortable with the only problem being the wind whipping the tops off our sandwiches as my mum appeared at the companionway steps with lunch. We passed a 27 footer which was having a very different experience, we were in T-Shirts enjoying the sail, they were in oilies with waves breaking over the decks and the boat being tossed all over the place.
 
coopec said:
I think builders of yachts these days concentrate on building Coastal Cruisers rather than Blue Water yachts. They don't worry about storage space, handholds, large water and fuel tanks.
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And that is the succinct point.

As much as I'm sure it'd be great to pack up your life ashore and bugger off sailing round the world for a decade, the % of boat owners actually doing this will be vanishingly small. I'd be willing to state that the vast majority of boat owners use their boats for a handful of weekends a year with a fortnight or so cruise. For this, all the stowage space you need is enough for a holdall each person and a few carrier bags from Tesco to see you through 4 days.

I've had a long keeled, go anywhere you want folkboat when I was a student, and whilst I miss the smooth sailing of the boat, I am under absolutely no mistaken illusions that my wife would ever entertain the thought of spending a weekend aboard, let alone a fortnights holiday.

Have a look around traditional, long keel boats up to 35ft - how many of them have what could be described as a spacious double berth? - vanishingly few and the ones which do often have a passion killing chain hawse between the berths! If we want to bring friends along for the weekend, where will they sleep? single berths in the main saloon? It's just not going to happen.

We often lament on this fora the lack of families sailing / the aging demographic and if we want to encourage families to sail, it needs to be appealing.
 
Laminar Flow said:
Contemporary yacht design of any age has always been strongly influenced by racing rules and successes of its day; form the hollow bows and flat(ter) cotton sails of America over the bumpy lumpy, super wide, fat belly and uselessly pinched in and up sterns of the seventies. Now we have triangular planing wedges and the latest thing: round bowed scows for ocean racing (because they provide a larger planing surface). All of these are available as off the shelf cruising boats these days (yes, including the scows). Are they better cruising boats? I doubt it, they were never conceived a such. The builders are happy of course; marketing needs something new to sell and while there have been plenty of improvements over the granddaddy of yachts, the 19th century pilot and fishing smacks, not everything new is necessarily better. Racing rules do not generally produce better boats or even faster ones, for that matter (see seventies). I don't think there is a single subject about which more rubbish has been written than the speed of yachts. Now that racing designs have taken such a pronounced departure from the "normal" type of boat, I think we should all just relax and get on with the business of cruising whatever type we may have, if that is your stick. A.
Click to expand...

I think this was once true, especially when you look at the lines of cruising classics like the Sadler 34 compared to the IOR racers of the day, but I don't buy it any more.

One of the big problems in fleet building from the racing point of view is the total unsuitability of modern cruising designs as racing boats. The latest cruisers from Benetau etc are simply no use whatsoever on the race course, and their hull forms look absolutely nothing like the successful race boats being launched by the likes of JPK and J-Boats etc. To say nothing of the really quick IMOCAs or Class 40s etc. To blame "racing rules" for the hull shape of the latest AWB offerings is absolutely miles wide of the mark.
And when you look at the fast cruisers that are now coming to the fore, the POGOs, the fat Elans etc, they are again pretty damn useless on the race track, mostly because they are pretty average at best upwind.
What they are however is brilliant at passage making with the wind on the beam or aft of it. Which is of course what cruisers most like to do...

To me one of the interesting things about modern yacht design (and I've started threads about this in the past) is the total disappearance of the cruiser racer from the marketplace. And the divergence of design between the boats sold as cruisers and the boats sold as racers.
 
Baggywrinkle said:
What exactly is a "blue water yacht"? ... is it a yacht that people use to cruise on, including the odd ocean crossing? - that makes even an Albin Vega a "blue water yacht" .... is it a liveaboard boat? or is it a construct used to differentiate the more expensive yachts from the cheaper mass-produced yachts? ... or is it a description of a yacht based on its equipment list? ....
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You ask what is a Blue Water yacht and you would have your own idea. But I'd go along with Jeff_H who seems to be pretty clued up.
I was going to quote him but his (excellent) but his explanation is a bit lengthy. I think most people would have a job arguing with him. (Look towards the end of the thread)

Bluewater vs coastal cruiser
 
coopec said:
You ask what is a Blue Water yacht and you would have your own idea. But I'd go along with Jeff_H who seems to be pretty clued up.
I was going to quote him but his (excellent) but his explanation is a bit lengthy. I think most people would have a job arguing with him. (Look towards the end of the thread)

Bluewater vs coastal cruiser
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A very good summary from Jeff_H and an excellent discussion on the compromises seen in racers, offshore and coastal boats .... even a few things I didn't expect to see ...

There is a less obvious choice when it comes to the keel and rudder type for offshore cruising. Many people prefer long or full keels for offshore work but to a great extent this is an anachronistic thinking that emerges from recollections of early fin-keelers. Properly engineered and designed, a fin keels with a skeg hung rudder can be a much better choice for offshore work. There is the rub. Few fin keelers in the size and price range that most people purchase for offshore cruising are engineered and designed for abuses of dedicated offshore cruising. That said, popular offshore cruisers like the Pacific Seacraft, and Valiants have adapted skeg-hung spade rudders while the Island Packets have chosen to use a rudder post hung spade rudder.

Of course race boats thrive on stability and low drag. For them, under most racing rules, there is only one choice, fin keels and spade rudders. Under some of the older rules, (International, Universal and CCA) race boats often had what were essentially fin keels with attached rudders. (For example look at the keel profile of a Luders 33 without the rudder area, as compared to the same era lace w:st="on">Callace> 2-30) This was the worst of all worlds. The boats do not track as well as a spade rudder but have all of the negatives of a keel hung rudder (greater exposure to damage being close to the depth of the keel, higher loading, less maneuverable).

Newer race boats have minimal foil area and large bulb keels. This combo was chosen for greater stability and therefore sail carrying capacity as well as minimal drag. As a side benefit this keel type has been demonstrated to offer increased seaworthiness and motion comfort that results from a significantly lower center of gravity relative to the vertical center of buoyancy, better dampening, and the ability to stall at high side loadings which reduces the likelihood of being rolled in a large breaking wave. In bulb keels were also shown to be the easiest to extract from a grounding, which is a very good thing considering that the most recent race boat designs generally have significantly deeper drafts.
Click to expand...
 
Baggywrinkle said:
What exactly is a "blue water yacht"? ... is it a yacht that people use to cruise on, including the odd ocean crossing? - that makes even an Albin Vega a "blue water yacht" .... is it a liveaboard boat? or is it a construct used to differentiate the more expensive yachts from the cheaper mass-produced yachts? ... or is it a description of a yacht based on its equipment list? ....

Many argue that doing the ARC isn't blue water ... does one have to round Cape Horn or spend time in the southern ocean for their choice of transport to become "blue water"?

A very well respected yacht broker, who has extensive "blue water" experince himself described a 2003 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2 as ...



My personal experience is that the lines are blurring, and pretty much any modern production yacht can be taken across the worlds oceans with minimal risk of death - and most modern boats have different layouts dependent on intended use .... the charter layouts pack the boat with cabin space and beds, the owners versions usually sacrifice a cabin or two for galley space and storage.

In decades gone by, yachts were also generally smaller, 30ft was a good size, they started to get wet and uncomfortable around F4/5 .... modern yachts tend to be closer to 40ft or more and don't get wet and uncomfortable until F6/7 ... maybe even more.

I did a Croatian holiday in a 46ft Beneteau a while back, and was underway in a F6 with seastate rough. We were dry and comfortable with the only problem being the wind whipping the tops off our sandwiches as my mum appeared at the companionway steps with lunch. We passed a 27 footer which was having a very different experience, we were in T-Shirts enjoying the sail, they were in oilies with waves breaking over the decks and the boat being tossed all over the place.
Click to expand...

Baggywrinkle, consider this simple infallible test .

"Mirror, mirror on the wall ............"
Q1: Which is the fairest bluewater yacht of them all? Yours is of course.​
Q2: Which is the fastest? Ignore that fancy Imoca shite; yours.​
Q4: Are Ultime tris fast? As I said, never believe the French!​
Q5: Who has the best anchor? You​
Q6: Which yacht can best carry weight? Archimedes was a Greek idiot.​
​
And so the Forum fights like rags!
:)
​
​
 
dom said:
"Mirror, mirror on the wall ............"
Q1: Which is the fairest bluewater yacht of them all? Yours is of course.​
Q2: Which is the fastest? Ignore that fancy Imoca shite; yours.​
Q4: Are Ultime tris fast? As I said, never believe the French!​
Q5: Who has the best anchor? You​
Q6: Which yacht can best carry weight? Archimedes was a Greek idiot.​
​
Click to expand...

I'm glad we can agree, but why can't anyone else see it?
 
anoccasionalyachtsman said:
I'm glad we can agree, but why can't anyone else see it?
Click to expand...

I can:

I am sure we all know the Beneteau 53 is a Mediterranean trophy boat, though not notably a bad one.
It has some nice features for the job.
As far as racing is concerned a sheep in wolf's clothing.
You could sail it around the world but it's unlikely anyone would be unable to find something more suitable.

The OP's rash suggestion "that all modern boats are completely horrible" would seem to be defeated.

It's grand when we all agree.
 
Interesting clip. As mentioned on this thread, buoyancy in the ends of the Comfortina
creates less pitching than the classic boat.

I don't know about other points of sail/ and or wind.
 
flaming said:
I
And when you look at the fast cruisers that are now coming to the fore, the POGOs, the fat Elans etc, they are again pretty damn useless on the race track, mostly because they are pretty average at best upwind.
What they are however is brilliant at passage making with the wind on the beam or aft of it. Which is of course what cruisers most like to do...
Click to expand...
But isnt just about every boat afloat pretty good with wind on the beam? In reality the modern cruiser to me appears to do the sailing bit less well then the offering from Ben, Jen, etc, from the 80/90s. What boats of that era don't do is compete with modern designs for accommodation appeal
 
flaming said:
I think this was once true, especially when you look at the lines of cruising classics like the Sadler 34 compared to the IOR racers of the day, but I don't buy it any more.

One of the big problems in fleet building from the racing point of view is the total unsuitability of modern cruising designs as racing boats. The latest cruisers from Benetau etc are simply no use whatsoever on the race course, and their hull forms look absolutely nothing like the successful race boats being launched by the likes of JPK and J-Boats etc. To say nothing of the really quick IMOCAs or Class 40s etc. To blame "racing rules" for the hull shape of the latest AWB offerings is absolutely miles wide of the mark.
And when you look at the fast cruisers that are now coming to the fore, the POGOs, the fat Elans etc, they are again pretty damn useless on the race track, mostly because they are pretty average at best upwind.
What they are however is brilliant at passage making with the wind on the beam or aft of it. Which is of course what cruisers most like to do...

To me one of the interesting things about modern yacht design (and I've started threads about this in the past) is the total disappearance of the cruiser racer from the marketplace. And the divergence of design between the boats sold as cruisers and the boats sold as racers.
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I agree that the cruiser racer concept is dead. That does not mean that contemporary design is not influenced by contemporary racing boats. It is, and, as you have so succinctly pointed out, it doesn't mean these boats are any good for the task of racing, that is. I didn't just "blame" the rules, I also cited the "successes" as a source of "inspiration". I would be the first to agree that the drone footage of a IMOCA racing along at 30 kts is totally sexy, though my wife would be happy to disagree - which kinda is the point: the builder's new offering looks a bit like it, but it still has that comfy interior. A bit like putting a spoiler and racing mags on a family sedan - it doesn't make it a formula one racer either. Putting a scow bow on a sea-going cruiser, however, is moronic but available, if you have your heart set on that.
 
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geem said:
But isnt just about every boat afloat pretty good with wind on the beam? In reality the modern cruiser to me appears to do the sailing bit less well then the offering from Ben, Jen, etc, from the 80/90s. What boats of that era don't do is compete with modern designs for accommodation appeal
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On the note of windward ability: so were the old and narrow long-keel designs. From 70 degr. off the wind a gaff rig is also considerably more efficient than bermudan, but then we just invented that as well ... again.
 
Laminar Flow said:
From 70 degr. off the wind a gaff rig is also considerably more efficient than bermudan, but then we just invented that as well ... again.
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I am not sure that I would agree with that. For one thing a gaff rig has a lot of weight aloft.
However, the point I would make is that one should consider the rig as a whole. Not just look at, say, the mainsail. A Bermudian rig lends itself to better down wind fore sails ( yes I have seen pics of large gaffers ones with lots of flying jibs) . Add a spinnaker or a large asymetrical & I would say that a bermudian rig tacking down wind would be better because of easier sail handling , lighter rig & a sail that has a better shape. A gaffer flying a heavy gaff along with several jibs, (which is how they would have sailed), is not an efficient sail to handle. Even when it comes to quick reefing.
Then look at the shape of the gaffers sail when the gaff is on the wrong side. Not good, is it?
Personally i think you are wrong. But that is only my opinion & others will agree with you- I am sure
 
How long do we think the classic is? I reckon 38 feet & that does not give a fair like for like. A modern Hanse 38 would have the main up & would blast the classic off the water. Plus be a lot more stable than the 32. I would also suggest that in my 31 ft Hanse in 25kts I would be on 2nd reef & full self tacking jib. With a sharper entry I also suspect i would be cutting through the water better.
Dunno how Bavs & Jennys at 31 ft would perform though. A First 31.7 would perform better than the Comfortina I suspect.
 
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