Is a test sail customary when buying a used boat?

[NealB]

I've bought and sold about twenty boats over the decades, about equally split between private and brokerage deals.

I'm fully with Tranona (well, it has to happen sometimes, innit?): I too see a huge difference between a 'test sail' (usually undertaken at an early stage, to see if the prospective buyer likes the way the design in general functions in use), and a 'sea trial' (after an offer has been accepted, to see if things on this particular boat work as they should, especially the engine, rig and systems).

As a buyer, I've only once had a test sail, as I've usually got a good idea about the characteristics of the design I'm considering from: talking to owners, from magazine articles, from websites, etc.

On the one occasion, I didn't ask for a test sail, the seller offered it.

I had a lovely day sail on the Humber, in a little known design, with a wonderful cockpit picnic lunch provided, with a really likeable, relaxed, friendly, owner. I felt horribly guilty when I decided not to make an offer: a lovely boat, a lovely owner, but I just couldn't put up with the way she was so easily overtaken to windward by a Snapdragon 27 (yes, that's a 100% true story).

As a seller, I'm also happy to take people out for a test sail, but have only ever done it twice. It felt enjoyable, not at all onerous (just taking a couple of strangers out for a few hours). One resulted in a sale, the other ...well, they said profuse 'thank yous' and "we'll be in touch", and we parted on very good terms. Of course, I never heard from them again (but lost nothing).

As a buyer, I do generally insist on a sea trial. The standard RYA proforma contract now has this as a clause, if I recall correctly.

If the boat is afloat, it's usually sensible to have the sea trial before survey (and vice versa). If the seller were to refuse, I'd be a little suspicious about what they had to hide.

I'm also equally happy, of course, as a seller, if someone wants to have a sea trial (perhaps with their surveyor/ other expert in attendance). I'm quite surprised that I can only recall it being asked for once.

So, yes, two different objectives.

 

[langstonelayabout]

My experience of brokers so far is quite underwhelming. Usually I find I have done far more research about the type of boat and they are unable to answer pretty basic questions. The last one we saw he didn't know the difference between a Rocna and a Spade. I've had many email enquiries go unanswered.
One boat I enquired about recently led to a short reply from the broker promising more details, which never arrived. The next I knew, about a month later the boat was lowered in price by 25%. Clearly somebody keen to sell, but the broker cannot be bothered answering the queries of potential buyers.

This matches my experiences of most brokers: them not turning up, being uncontactable at the time of the missed appointment, not answering any emails about the boat, not knowing the boats they are selling, telling half truths. It is on a par with estate agency of the eighties.

I'd love to be proven wrong with our next boat...

 

[langstonelayabout]

For a second-hand boat, a survey will display its condition, so long as some form of guarantee is available regarding the engine.

And your surveyor will absolve himself from knowing anything about the engine and recommend you engage the services of an engineer.

The engineer will probably be able to check the current state of coolant and oil but I don't expect he will want to take much apart. That is why a sea trial of the boat's equipment whilst afloat is a good idea, although you really need to have a list of what you expect to be proven, and how it is to be proven with measures, etc., before you start one.

 

[capnsensible]

Ive never bought a boat without taking it out for a good going over first. As I see it, the only way to check out your expensive potential investment is to go use it.

I sold one of my yachts in April and was more than happy to take the Purchaser out for a while.

I do occasional work for a broker doing test sails. The sales contract will have been signed and a deposit paid at least. He has been subjected to time wasters in the past! No idea of the fine print though personally, just take the Dudes out sailing.

 

[Tranona]

I do occasional work for a broker doing test sails. The sales contract will have been signed and a deposit paid at least. He has been subjected to time wasters in the past! No idea of the fine print though personally, just take the Dudes out sailing.

But if the buyer has signed a contract he is a buyer and not just an interested party. That is the essential difference. If it is a condition of the contract that he gets to try the boat that is part of the sea trial.

A "test sail" is giving a trial without any commitment and that is at the discretion of the owner who may think it will change the interested person into a firm buyer. Maybe sometimes it will, but maybe not.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Whilst one can do all the armchair research one likes, it would seem strange to buy without knowing how it all works together at sea. In the case of many older boats, the boat you're looking at now will be quite different from the original spec. For example, our boat was built with a 10m masthead rig and now has an 11m fractional - how will it sail? Even modern boats can have so many options that it's hard to find 2 the same (and one the same as the review you read). That cockpit design / cabin layout etc that seemed fine in the marina may just not work for you at sea.

 

[Solent Sailor]

Now on our sixth boat, I agree with the test sail/sea trial distinction.

For us, the only boat we ever test sailed we didn’t buy. At the time, we were uncertain about buying that type of craft and the owner volunteered the opportunity. Although we liked it, we decided to do something different. I don’t expect anyone felt hard done by.

Sea trials - only ever had one and that was on our latest boat. I foresaw more potential issues with a 50ft motor boat than the 30-40ft yachts that I am more accustomed to.

I’m interested in people’s views that it is a buyers market. Not sure I agree. My old yacht (an Elan 40 with a distinguished racing pedigree) was snapped up for virtually the asking price by the first person who saw her. I gave him the opportunity to stay on board over night and have a test sail the following day. There was no question that he and the boat were right for each other from the outset.

I see a lot of poor quality/presented boats on the market, but we found it really hard to find a motor boat - two trips to the South of France and the Vendee, lots around the South Coast and one to Scotland before we got ours. We made offers on two other boats and the vendors played the game very well - no hints of desperation to sell.

Selling another smaller motor boat recently, I had two viewings; the first asked several follow up questions after viewing her, but seemed in no hurry to buy anything. The second couldn’t wait to buy her. Neither could be persuaded to have a test sail - I was keen to offer it because I was confident it would close the sale. I made over 40% profit on that sale compared to the price I paid a year ago for her, so I don’t think that suggests it is a buyers market either.

 

[capnsensible]

But if the buyer has signed a contract he is a buyer and not just an interested party. That is the essential difference. If it is a condition of the contract that he gets to try the boat that is part of the sea trial.

A "test sail" is giving a trial without any commitment and that is at the discretion of the owner who may think it will change the interested person into a firm buyer. Maybe sometimes it will, but maybe not.

Thats a good summary, thanks. :encouragement:

 

[Kelpie]

If it's not a buyers' market, it is certainly a slow one. Plenty of adverts out there with three year old photos. I've been following the market for quite a while now and most of the boats that have piqued my interest are still for sale, often with serious price reductions. Of course there is a lot of crap out there as well- I really don't understand people who think they can sell their boat with an advert that has two blurry photos of the outside and two lines of text.

 

[Quandary]

We bought our new Finngulf 33 without a test sail, though one was offered, but it seemed obvious to me that she would handle well. Since she was the first one to come to Scotland the importer did a deal with us and we were given two very nice sails from North Finland as we agreed to offer test sail opportunities up here. As it turned out we only did one, the purchaser brought his sailmaker and racing crew with him so I think I benefited as much as he did, a boat was duly ordered and the importer was well pleased too.

 

[Sailing Pivo]

I do think it is customary, and recommended, to do a test sail on any boat, especially if it is used.

We conducted our test sail on a 1990 Whiting 40 designed and built in New Zealand. For us, it was really important to try out everything ourselves - putting up and down the sails, turning on the outboard and inboard marine engines, making sure the wind generator and solar panels work, as well as testing all the little systems throughout the boat.

When you're out sailing, make sure you have a look at how the deck is laid out. Is the layout and placing of equipment suitable offshore sailing, coastal cruising, or being a full time cruiser / liveaboard? How does she feel when heeled over? Does she turn quickly when need be? How close to the wind does she point? How does the speed over ground compare the the wind speed?

It’s so exciting when you have gotten to this point. You are about to have an epic entry into boat and sailing life. It's a hell of a nomad lifestyle, and one filled with adventures, peaceful moments, and lots of great memories!

Fair winds & calm seas,
Sailing Pivo

 

[RichardS]

We conducted our test sail on a 1990 Whiting 40 designed and built in New Zealand.

Welcome to the forum but I can't help wondering when this test sail took place?

Richard

 

[jordanbasset]

I do think it is customary, and recommended, to do a test sail on any boat, especially if it is used.

We conducted our test sail on a 1990 Whiting 40 designed and built in New Zealand. For us, it was really important to try out everything ourselves - putting up and down the sails, turning on the outboard and inboard marine engines, making sure the wind generator and solar panels work, as well as testing all the little systems throughout the boat.

When you're out sailing, make sure you have a look at how the deck is laid out. Is the layout and placing of equipment suitable offshore sailing, coastal cruising, or being a full time cruiser / liveaboard? How does she feel when heeled over? Does she turn quickly when need be? How close to the wind does she point? How does the speed over ground compare the the wind speed?

It’s so exciting when you have gotten to this point. You are about to have an epic entry into boat and sailing life. It's a hell of a nomad lifestyle, and one filled with adventures, peaceful moments, and lots of great memories!

Fair winds & calm seas,
Sailing Pivo

Welcome to the forum
Although I do think most of those things (not all) you have highlighted can be done without a test sail

 

[jac]

I do think it is customary, and recommended, to do a test sail on any boat, especially if it is used.

We conducted our test sail on a 1990 Whiting 40 designed and built in New Zealand. For us, it was really important to try out everything ourselves - putting up and down the sails, turning on the outboard and inboard marine engines, making sure the wind generator and solar panels work, as well as testing all the little systems throughout the boat.

When you're out sailing, make sure you have a look at how the deck is laid out. Is the layout and placing of equipment suitable offshore sailing, coastal cruising, or being a full time cruiser / liveaboard? How does she feel when heeled over? Does she turn quickly when need be? How close to the wind does she point? How does the speed over ground compare the the wind speed?

It’s so exciting when you have gotten to this point. You are about to have an epic entry into boat and sailing life. It's a hell of a nomad lifestyle, and one filled with adventures, peaceful moments, and lots of great memories!

Fair winds & calm seas,
Sailing Pivo

Welcome - a lot of that is covered by a survey / sea trial though.

And still not sure how you separate the day rippers from the serious buyers!

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I did before making an offer and would do in future. There are an awful lot of things you can't asses without using them in anger. It also allowed a proper discussion with the seller about the equipment and history and a pleasant environment in which to agree a price.

 

[sailorman]

I've never test sailed any boat I've bought

+1

 

[michael_w]

Depends! if she's been sailed regularly, a sea trial is probably not required. But if she's been laid up for any length of time it's probably wise, unless you've agreed a good enough price to replace most of the stuff that is unlikely to work.

 

[38mess]

I have sold two boats and was asked for a test sail on them both as they were in the water. You can usually tell a tyre kicker, they both went straight after the sail.
I have bought three boats and not test sailed them. Two were on the hard, and the last one was being sold by a broker and he said he wasn't allowed to move the boat, I still bought it and it was fine.

 

[Sailing Pivo]

Welcome to the forum but I can't help wondering when this test sail took place?

Richard

Thanks for the welcome. Back in June or July. Why do you ask?
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Sailing Pivo

 

[Sailing Pivo]

Welcome - a lot of that is covered by a survey / sea trial though.

And still not sure how you separate the day rippers from the serious buyers!

Are you coming from a broker point of view? We walked away from a from a few boats because the broker didn't take us seriously. One broker even said he could 'spot our type' from a mile away, and we were the kind of people who went from boat to boat wasting a broker's time but incapable of making the leap. A month later we found our girl, and have no regrets about walking away from the boats we did.

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Sailing Pivo