Is a test sail customary when buying a used boat?

[Kelpie]

We've bought two yachts and couldn't get a test sail either time, as they were not in commision. When we sold our previous boat, both viewings included a test sail, which I was happy to arrange.
I noticed a comment on another thread suggesting that it would be best to charter if you were interested in a particular model, rather than expect to get a test sail.
What are people's experiences?

 

[Bobc]

I've never test sailed any boat I've bought

 

[Bristolfashion]

In Australia, the process is pretty standard
1. Agree price subject to test sail & survey
2. Pay deposit - usually 10%
3. Survey & sea trial
4. If 3 above is disastrous, pull out of sale with deposit returned. If minor issues, renegotiate price/remediation. If no issues, pay balance & take ownership.

Is this not the UK process? Particularly interested as we'll be buying our 1st UK boat next year.

 

[A1Sailor]

I had a test sail twice, but it was more value to make sure the engine ran. It was nice to see the sails up, but how well they sailed (or didn't) wasn't a deal breaker!
Last time I sold, the boat wasn't in commission but I ran the engine ashore with the prospective new owner before concluding the sale.

 

[Bodach na mara]

I have test-sailed only one of the four yachts that I have bought. The other three were laid up ashore, so a test sail was not possible. I also test-sailed one boat that I did not buy.

I have also had several sailing dinghies and test-sailed none of them.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

A test sail is really to see if everything on the boat works as advertised rather than to see if you like the way she sails I think. Given the way a boat's behaviour changes in different wind and sea states, etc. it would be pretty hard to judge that from one test sail unless you're really lucky with the conditions and get a very long test sail. I've been invited along to a few test sails/sea trials simply as another set of eyes to look for problems, etc.

 

[webcraft]

.
I didn't have a test sail on Fairwinds before I bought her, but I had sailed another Vega from Sweden to the West coast of Scotland, which gave me some idea. OTOH, I didn't have a test sail on Avy-J, and have so far only sailed her 15nm - definitely not far enough to form an opinion. A meaningful test sail would have to be a whole day minimum, with different sea states and wind strengths.

Not thinking of another boat are you Rob?


- W

 

[Tranona]

In Australia, the process is pretty standard
1. Agree price subject to test sail & survey
2. Pay deposit - usually 10%
3. Survey & sea trial
4. If 3 above is disastrous, pull out of sale with deposit returned. If minor issues, renegotiate price/remediation. If no issues, pay balance & take ownership.

Is this not the UK process? Particularly interested as we'll be buying our 1st UK boat next year.

It is exactly the same in the UK. The sea trial is to check that everything that is claimed to work, does work, particularly those things such as engines that cannot be checked properly when ashore (as arguably most boats are when they change hands).

A test sail usually means sailing the boat before making an offer primarily to see if the potential buyer likes it enough to make an offer. This is more common when buying a new boat as the dealer may well have a demonstrator specifically for that purpose, although in my experience this is becoming more uncommon as volume sales in the UK are low and the huge variety of models means availability of a demonstrator is limited.

With a used boat a test sail is rare for all sorts of reasons, and the pros and cons are discussed here regularly. The thing that stands out in these discussions is how few buyers are interested in a test sail, having usually decided the boat is the one for them based on knowledge of the type, published material, owners' feedback etc. The reality is as already mentioned, there is little one can learn from a couple of hours spin round the harbour.

The advice to charter is sound, although in most cases impractical, particularly if buying an older boat simply because there are none for charter. In my experience though it can be useful. For my first "big boat" purchase I did indeed charter the type that was top of my list and this saved me from a big mistake as, good boat though it was, just not suitable for the type of sailing I wanted it for. Chartered a more suitable boat and then bought a similar model to that.

Worth noting that there is nothing to stop a seller offering a test sail and in some cases this may clinch the sale. The danger is that free loaders can take advantage. Brokers avoid offering test sails partly because experience shows that it rarely results in a sale and partly to protect the owner's interests.

 

[Kelpie]

A test sail is really to see if everything on the boat works as advertised rather than to see if you like the way she sails I think. Given the way a boat's behaviour changes in different wind and sea states, etc. it would be pretty hard to judge that from one test sail unless you're really lucky with the conditions and get a very long test sail. I've been invited along to a few test sails/sea trials simply as another set of eyes to look for problems, etc.

Yes I agree that it would be impractical to expect to learn how the boat copes with every point of sail, sea state, etc.
A bit like viewing a house though- you have to use your imagination and extrapolate from a sunny day to a miserable midwinter one.

@Webby: early days yet, but yes we're talking about moving up to something bigger. Big plans!

@Tranona: So brokers don't do test sails... I'm struggling to see the point of this 'service', my experience so far is that boats advertised privately are much easier to deal with because the owner can generally answer your questions, and do so promptly and accurately.

 

[Tranona]

@Tranona: So brokers don't do test sails... I'm struggling to see the point of this 'service', my experience so far is that boats advertised privately are much easier to deal with because the owner can generally answer your questions, and do so promptly and accurately.

They don't generally do test sails for two simple reasons. First they do not own the boat and second they are very time consuming and rarely lead to a sale that would not otherwise have happened.

There are pros and cons of using a broker from the point of view of both buyer and seller, but given brokers have been around forever it suggests that they perform a useful service. Many owners do not have the time or experience to deal with a sale (and may not even be good at answering questions!) and many buyers prefer to deal with a professional, especially when it comes to dealing with the paperwork and the money side. That is invariably where the broker earns his crust and the work involved is mostly hidden.

Making people aware that your boat is for sale and even getting them to view is the eas(ier) bit. Turning a potential buyer into a real buyer is the hard bit. Brokers do it every day, private sellers may only do it once or twice in a lifetime.

The great thing is that you have a choice, as does the seller, but excluding boats with brokers seriously limits your choice.

 

[maby]

I've never test sailed any boat I've bought

We've test sailed every boat that we have bought - but all but one of them were brand new and we were test sailing to decide if we liked them. In one case, it was a new stock boat that the dealer had tied up outside their office and we asked for a quick spin round the Solent to see how we liked it. On the other two occasions, the boat was going to be ordered from the factory, but the dealer talked the owner of an identical boat into letting us see their boat in action. It's a two way thing - we also allowed a dealer to demonstrate our boat to a potential buyer of the same model.

 

[Birdseye]

We've bought two yachts and couldn't get a test sail either time, as they were not in commision. When we sold our previous boat, both viewings included a test sail, which I was happy to arrange.
I noticed a comment on another thread suggesting that it would be best to charter if you were interested in a particular model, rather than expect to get a test sail.
What are people's experiences?

never given a test sail on selling and only once had one buying which was when we were making a major shift mono to cat.

if magazine boat tests are available I wouldnt worry about a test sail if the boat was out of commission.

as for selling, the problem is tyre kickers. dreamers with no intention or no ability to buy.

 

[jac]

Never had or given a test sail but have given sea trial and would expect to want one in any future purchase.

As for a test sail, Agree with others - not going to give up a day to take some hopeless dreamer out for a jolly. Even if it does result in a sale then do you really want to spend your time dealing with someone that is so dependent on the test sail to make the purchase. Far rather deal with someone who knows the subject enough to follow the usual process.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Well I just insisted on test "sail" to check the engine state as had known problems a year ago and I was and indeed am unsure they were fixed. As a new engine is a very significant cost proportionally for a second hand boat, much more than a single new sail, I think it essential. Anyway you can visually tell if a sail is worthless or just a bit worn, not so an engine. Brokers think otherwise and only want to shift her to get commission. But its my money, and tucking inside Portland Race or other nasties in uncertain conditions it could be Mine and The Navigators life or wellbeing.

Obviously if the engine is new or you know about the actual boat already then it a waste of every ones time unless there is some other non-standard arrangement to try out. (Rudder now moved, bowsprit added or removed etc).

 

[michael_w]

Only time I'd consider a test sail prior to purchase is when the boat in question has been laid up for a long time. Not good to buy your dream boat only to find a seized gearbox ...

 

[Tranona]

Well I just insisted on test "sail" to check the engine state as had known problems a year ago and I was and indeed am unsure they were fixed. As a new engine is a very significant cost proportionally for a second hand boat, much more than a single new sail, I think it essential. Anyway you can visually tell if a sail is worthless or just a bit worn, not so an engine. Brokers think otherwise and only want to shift her to get commission. But its my money, and tucking inside Portland Race or other nasties in uncertain conditions it could be Mine and The Navigators life or wellbeing.

Obviously if the engine is new or you know about the actual boat already then it a waste of every ones time unless there is some other non-standard arrangement to try out. (Rudder now moved, bowsprit added or removed etc).

This is a good example of where a trial prior to making an offer might have value. It is not a test sail but moving the trial to before rather than after the offer. If the seller knows of the issues it would make sense for him to offer this as he may well not get an offer without, or worse still go right through the purchase procedure and have to deal with it after the survey/sea trial.

The key thing is flexibility and doing what is appropriate in the circumstances, so long as both parties are happy with the arrangement.

 

[jac]

Well I just insisted on test "sail" to check the engine state as had known problems a year ago and I was and indeed am unsure they were fixed. As a new engine is a very significant cost proportionally for a second hand boat, much more than a single new sail, I think it essential. Anyway you can visually tell if a sail is worthless or just a bit worn, not so an engine. Brokers think otherwise and only want to shift her to get commission. But its my money, and tucking inside Portland Race or other nasties in uncertain conditions it could be Mine and The Navigators life or wellbeing.

Obviously if the engine is new or you know about the actual boat already then it a waste of every ones time unless there is some other non-standard arrangement to try out. (Rudder now moved, bowsprit added or removed etc).

Surely that's a trial sail, not a test sail?

I wonder if a lot of the issue whenever this subject comes up is people not having the same terminology.

My understanding is this:
Test Sail - a demo of the boat to see how it works, suits your style of sailing, is comfortable for you. Done before the purchaser puts in an offer / deposit and so no commitment on the purchasers part.
Sea Trial - a more technical focussed trip to ensure that sails are as described, that engine, instruments and other equipment work without any faults. Basically testing those things that a survey can't. Done after a price agreed, deposit paid, ( and possibly a survey) and is really part of the due diligence on the transaction.


Using those definitions - test sail, no. Sea trial yes.

 

[Spyro]

, there is little one can learn from a couple of hours spin round the harbour.

.

Except whether the engine runs well, doesn't overheat/vibrate, have enough power, does the gearbox work as it should does it have enough power. I think there is a lot you could learn certainly a lot more than if you didn't. But it's your choice.

 

[jac]

Except whether the engine runs well, doesn't overheat/vibrate, have enough power, does the gearbox work as it should does it have enough power. I think there is a lot you could learn certainly a lot more than if you didn't. But it's your choice.

But isn't that a combination of reading the boats details - (9hp engine in a modern 40 footer is underpowered, 40hp is fine) and the sea trial to make sure that the engine does actually work.

 

[Tranona]

Except whether the engine runs well, doesn't overheat/vibrate, have enough power, does the gearbox work as it should does it have enough power. I think there is a lot you could learn certainly a lot more than if you didn't. But it's your choice.

That is what a sea trial is for. Not the same as a test sail.

As I explained earlier it may well be sensible to ask for a trial of the engine before making an offer if there is a history of problems with the engine that are supposed to be cured.

It is important to distinguish between the two terms. They have very different objectives. If the purpose is to find out whether you like the style of boat, or it handles heavy weather well, or any other characteristics you want to assess then a couple of hours will tell you very little.