IPS 400 would you buy a boat with it

Boat2016 said:
Just done a bit of research on this and the rubber skirts that are referred to as being an expensive service item look identical to the way an outdrive seals to the transom shield and there's no mention of changing them in the service schedule, you don't change them on an outdrive eithter
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That's exactly as I understand it and how it was explained to me the first time this came up.
It sounds like someone once got mugged by a VP dealership but I've been well served by Volvo - especially with replacements and part updates.
 
Nigelpickin said:
You do say the funniest things Porto - I'm not calling the argument won or lost by either 'side' but time and time again, the same folk will reply to an IPS / POD question with hearsay and archived anecdotes. You've literally been quoting the $22k figure for years now and each time you do I send an email to my service guy, (Volvo accredited), and he says, well I won't say what he says because it's not polite but let's just say that he disagrees with the number.


You also used to have strong views about forward facing propellers but seem to have relaxed a little on that issue.

Now - first hand experience from me - the big service for my IPS D6 435 was in fact 5 years or 800 hours - having done 450 hours in the nearly 4 years of ownership and knowing that the boat was being passed on to a new owner - I commissioned the 5 year service and the price was €4,300. That's not including the lift out but of course the boat was coming out for service / antifoul anyway, this included oil change - magnets - seals, filters - impellers and so on; it's a grossed up figure for the engines and PODS.

New owner, very nice chap who's come from shafts to IPS and has been parked next to a Rodman on IPS for years, will not have to do another big service for 400 hours but will of course have larger service costs than before.

To counter this - I am aware that some early IPS - gen 1 boats have had issues; I've definitely heard of water ingress, filings and electronic malfunctions, like any prospective buyer - the OP must be super diligent with questions and paperwork.

And for context, our boat depreciated around 10% for each year of ownership, our marina costs and general expenses sans service were in the region of £20k per year - I'm not wanting to come across in any way as Sean Spiceresque but there is a whiff of Fake News in the air....
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Clearly some on here approach their boating budget from a different perspective to others. The OP mentioned a boat ~ 10 years old, so assuming he keeps it for 3 seasons it is now 13 years old and approaching the time such a boat will be joining the 'economy' end of the motorboating leisure market.

I think a key point being missed here is that conventional shafts can be serviced to quite some degree, if not totally, by a moderate capability mechanic. The same is true of outdrives, although I would suggest this will be required more often, and on older boats with less reliability.

An IPS system is effectively beyond the domain of the 'economy' boating market from a servicing perspective, as are already common rail engines (I won't have one of those either !).

So what ?

Well if you can't sell your ~13 year old boat on, what are you going to do with it ?

The higher end of the market relies on the middle and lower end to keep the market moving. OK I appreciate there will always be some who simply don't care how much their boating costs them, nor how much their craft may depreciate, and good luck to them I say, after all none of us are taking it with us.

I would also acknowledge my own comments fall into your criticism of never having owned either IPS, nor outdrives yet holding high opinion on the matter. What I do have is 40 years around boats, warships, sailing and motor, and professional training and reasonable experience on large marine propulsion systems.

The conclusion here is that IPS is basically for folk who cannot park in a marina, and this is overcome by using a pseudo Voith Schneider system, when for most of a boat's use it doesn't really matter a damn what propulsion system is pushing it through the water. As I have said I will stick with shafts, and if I ever go smaller I would prefer to have the entire thing hanging on the back, i.e. an outboard.
 
superheat6k said:
The conclusion here is that IPS is basically for folk who cannot park in a marina, and this is overcome by using a pseudo Voith Schneider system, when for most of a boat's use it doesn't really matter a damn what propulsion system is pushing it through the water. As I have said I will stick with shafts, and if I ever go smaller I would prefer to have the entire thing hanging on the back, i.e. an outboard.
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You nearly got a bite....

:)

But seriously, it's like trying to explain dinosaur bones to a GOP creationist!

Just once more - The brand of boat that I bought only comes on PODS - at the time it was the only sub 600k 50' boat that I liked - it Was the right boat for us, in terms of accommodation, interior volume, style and so on. I had experience of the broker and the yard and was enfranchised by that - like it or not the drive really was a long way down the list, in terms of import.

Our next boat will have a sail drive on each side - this time we have chosen a boat that can cross oceans, I expect plenty of similar nonsense from dyed in the wool raggies with shafts and engines under their beds :)
 
superheat6k said:
The conclusion here is that IPS is basically for folk who cannot park in a marina..... QUOTE]


I'm with Nigel on this one.

I am currently awaiting for my newly ordered boat - it's 50' fly bridge on IPS drives.

My previous boat had outdrives and I certainly thought my move up would be to a boat on shafts. However, as With Nigel it's wasn't the overriding factor dominating our wish list. Our new choice ticked every other requirement on our list - the hull is new and designed for pods and we were thoroughly impressed with the sea keeping.

With only 8 years boating experience I'm definitely a novice compared to most here but I've never had too many troubles mooring and pods/joystick were absolutely not a requirement.

With regard to servicing costs - these have been factored into to our budget and our typical 500-800 miles of use per annum will hopefully give us a little offset on fuel savings. Future out of guarantee problems with the pods are a concern but no more so than hilo platforms, paserelles, generators, seakeeper, air con etc etc potential financial trip ups everywhere ! We had numerous minor, but not insignificant cost niggles on our previous boat but zero problems with the out drives.

Our intention is to keep this boat for a while, our maintenance and care will be fastidious and hopefully the perceived negativity of pods won't be material versus the overall depreciation. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to find someone who can't park !
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Nigelpickin said:
The brand of boat that I bought only comes on PODS - at the time it was the only ( ....) boat that I liked - it was the right boat for us, in terms of accommodation, interior volume, style and so on. I had experience of the broker and the yard and was enfranchised by that - like it or not the drive really was a long way down the list, in terms of import.
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It's a plus two from me on this point. Though I must say that as a newby to sailing, and with my first boat - a Jeanneau Merry Fisher 925 - being only a single shaft, which tbh I found not the easiest to handle, I was indeed attracted to the selling point of IPS on a much larger boat 50 foot plus boat, first with a 58 foot Prestige 550 and again with our latest 70 foot Prestige 680.

That said - if we were ever to go larger to a 78-80 footer then I would in all likelihood want to try a shaft driven boat. But at the moment we are so loving our 680 that any upgrade is totally off the table for the foreseeable future :eagerness:
 
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Think this will all boil down to a time will tell scenerio. Boats, private aircraft/helicopters and other high value toys tend to have some residual value for some considerable time compared to other purchases.
The sheer amount of money spent on maintainance and servicing simply to keep the things able to move and looking shiney reflects this, despite most of its life spent firmly attached to the pontoon.
The aircraft industry has a reputation for evolution not revolution, bit like Porsche, the marine industry has come a cropper in the past, cored hulls for instance, and would appear to be willing to take more risks despite past experience.
A quick read through David Pascoes website highlights all the risks of using "exciting new "materials and techniques in a marine enviroment and exactly who eventually picks up the bill.
 
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seastoke said:
so say 10 yrs old how reliable are they how much for service charge ,spares or should you go for shafts
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I don't think I would reject it out if hand, but I would go in with some expectation that resale might be harder-if only as responses here show, some people have concerns.Also, from what I recall from magazine reviews, some of the earlier installations didn't live up to either handling or fuel consumption aspirations. That was boat model specific, it seemed.I think I would like to be sure that ten years ago,this was one of the IPS set ups that did deliver.
 
Bouba said:
Everybody is looking at the cost of the machinery and service and nobody is assigning a value to the IPS chief attribute, the handling. What price is stress free docking, no arguments and yelling at the first mate no fear of new ports and no anxiety over crowded peak season waterways. Since this is a leisure activity then that has to be worth something
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Install a stern thruster? Much cheaper. Offers the same stress free parking.
 
ngm said:
superheat6k said:
the conclusion here is that ips is basically for folk who cannot park in a marina..... Quote]

congratulations on the boat :) will we get a new boat thread??




I'm with nigel on this one.

I am currently awaiting for my newly ordered boat - it's 50' fly bridge on ips drives.

My previous boat had outdrives and i certainly thought my move up would be to a boat on shafts. However, as with nigel it's wasn't the overriding factor dominating our wish list. Our new choice ticked every other requirement on our list - the hull is new and designed for pods and we were thoroughly impressed with the sea keeping.

With only 8 years boating experience i'm definitely a novice compared to most here but i've never had too many troubles mooring and pods/joystick were absolutely not a requirement.

With regard to servicing costs - these have been factored into to our budget and our typical 500-800 miles of use per annum will hopefully give us a little offset on fuel savings. Future out of guarantee problems with the pods are a concern but no more so than hilo platforms, paserelles, generators, seakeeper, air con etc etc potential financial trip ups everywhere ! We had numerous minor, but not insignificant cost niggles on our previous boat but zero problems with the out drives.

Our intention is to keep this boat for a while, our maintenance and care will be fastidious and hopefully the perceived negativity of pods won't be material versus the overall depreciation. Maybe i'll be lucky enough to find someone who can't park !
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my two pennies worth, but this is only my second year of boating (so may not be worth much)

Owned 36ft shaft drive boat last year (without stern thruster) and 50ft IPS this year. While no trouble parking as such did have to start again once or twice last year. IPS (and with joystick) is very easy to park (first time every time). Virtual anchor/DPS I also use a bit when either deciding what to do or wish to go elsewhere on the boat.

All my boating is med and anchoring in various coves.

I currently prefer IPS to shafts just for ease of use (admittedly i did not have stern thrusters before). I know shaft/bow thrusters can supposedly do the same but quite happy with IPS and another advantage is moving the engines further back to create bigger mid cabin space. I would go back to shafts but i have no issues (maybe even prefer) IPS.

However I doubt I would purchase a 10 year old IPS boat as quite new back then. In another 10 years I would not have a problem purchasing a 10 year old IPS boat.
 
If the steering mechanism on IPS was hydraulic (ie no electric motor, no software) and the drive leg was lubricated by sea water and faced backwards I would be more interested. However lubrication with sea water could be a hard problem to solve.

I quite understand why we have electronic controls on engines and there doesn't seem to be an alternative that gives the same high level of emissions control.
 
kashurst said:
If the steering mechanism on IPS was hydraulic (ie no electric motor, no software) and the drive leg was lubricated by sea water and faced backwards I would be more interested. However lubrication with sea water could be a hard problem to solve.

I quite understand why we have electronic controls on engines and there doesn't seem to be an alternative that gives the same high level of emissions control.
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Water lubricated bearings have been around for many years, e.g. the common cutlass bearing, and when the Navy ran on steam the boiler feed pumps had PTFE water lubricated bearings, no oil or grease at all inside those machines. So your idea is do-able and I can see some clear advantages to your ideas. Its the complexity and utter reliance upon the OEM for ever that would really bother me, because if they decided to stop supporting a particular model after say 15 years the whole things could become non serviceable or requiring a very expensive replacement.
 
kashurst said:
I have been on an ipS boat, fast, very quiet, handles really well, parking looked very easy (I didn't park it), fuel efficient, it all just worked. However I don't have a problem parking shaft drive boats especially if they have a bow thruster and I don't yell at the crew.
The thing I personally find the most stressful about boating is reliability. All boats what ever the drive system sometimes breakdown. Hopefully in a minor way, but you do have to anticipate the worst case scenarios. So after 18 years and 6 boats I look for simplicity, ease of access and designs that aim to minimise the potential risk of downtime and the associated costs. This gives me peace of mind and maximises the enjoyment of boating.
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Well said. After 5 boats and 30 plus years boating, cannot agree with you more. Reliability, always.
 
so my conclusion is to stick with shafts to help stop big bills ,also how many Volvo guys know enough about ips and electronics that's my opinion
 
If you troll the net for problems with IPS not a lot comes up, and not a lot that's recent. We have all heard the scare stories but many of them could be the same few examples circulating again and again. The net is very good at recording troubles because people need to vent and also seek help, good experiences don't make it into print as often. I take that as a good sign, they've been around for quite awhile and there must be a fair few out there. And let's be realistic, if you only went by scare stories nobody would buy any Volvo boat engine.
If a pod system was on my horizon I would do a lot more due diligence as far as research goes but I wouldn't start from a negative stance.
 
oldgit said:
IPS is also used commercially.

A 360 degree propulsion system in one form or another has apparently been around for years at least since just post WW1.
Popular in tugs needing high maneuverbility and is now also very common in large ocean liners doing away with tug support in outlying small ports.
A company I used to work for had tugs using this method of propulsion and it was accepted the constant work needed to keep the system going, compared to standard shaft drive was just par the course.
They definately need higher care and had lower reliability but fortunately had a full time engineer aboard and shore based backup.
As for IPs and outdrives being the same, you basically have all the disadvantages of outdrives with their complicated collection of gears and materials with added mechanical and electronic complexity to make the entire thing rotate and all fully immersed in a hostile environment.
The world is full of brave folks experimenting with new technologies and pushing the bounderies of materials and this should be encouraged, especially those spending their own money to support them.


http://www.voith.com/br/products-services/power-transmission/voith-schneider-propeller-10002.html
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I read it somewhere that the IPS on our boats is different from those in ocean liners.
 
Guys two points
1- dynamic positioning
Can,t see many liesure boaters stampeding to the IPS boat stands at a boat show screeching "must have DP that's número uno redline must have "

Of course in commercial off shore applications that's the reason d entre .

2-running costs -specifically big bills etc
Tiny very tiny drop in the ocean to these guys .
Down time like our nuclear sub fleet covered by having more ran one ,in the sub case - 4 ,but only 1 actually on station .One in port ,one refit /repairs - other on passage to station .
 
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