IPS 400 would you buy a boat with it

[oldgit]

IPS would you buy a boat with it ?

Up to you but the stories about the early units failing from both electronic and mechanical reasons and the VP technicians having difficulty resolving some of the more serious ones is not unknown.
Another clue could have been Coastal rides aquiring a number of units and attempting to flog off the bits for spares.
Even a search of this forum will produce IPS problems despite only a tiny percentage of boats having them installed, most of them on nice boats as well.
Friend of mine gave a first hand account of an IPS unit failing while travelling around the Balerics about 3 weeks ago in a newish SESSA 55.
A VP technician was actually flown out to investigate. The laymans report by the owner was that "clutch plates" of some sort were "munched" and the leg will need removal/inspection to investigate if it is economical to repair. Vessel spent 8 hours coming home in limp mode on single working engine.
Probably IPS is like outdrives, fine for the first and well heeled owner who can afford the cost of correct servicing and serious bills if out of warranty, however as they slip down the food chain.
Unlike outdrives which are possible to service by yourself, mainly due to managable physical size and to sheer numbers with loads of knock off cheapo parts available, IPS is a large lump and nobody is going to product after market spares.
As for making life easier, perhaps mastering an art is what keeps many of us addicted to boating as opposed to briefly giving it a go,finding it all a bit too challenging and returning to golf.

 

[Portofino]

http://www.regalownersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7873

My nieghbours Sessa 43 has constant woes with IPS 400 - approx 10 y old .
First boat too , to him had it a year had 4 days working rest probs -

VP marketing and strategy dept realised 10-15 y ago as builders were then going bigger with the intro boat north of 40 ft they would be left behind sales wise just relying on the smaller boat outdrive market .
So to stay in the game and keep the turn over ,sales , profit graphs and top brass bonuses every increasing they came up with IPS .
The USP is docking so Obviousley that side is marketed to death to the extent that simple shafts somehow need experiance and hard found skills .
But as others have said its a none issue docking a twin shaft boat .
In fact I would say easy and fun ,it's the best part of the day docking and marina manourvering using twin sticks and a bow thruster .

After D6 ips they then D12 ,ed it and now peddle it in units up to 4 in up to 100 ftrs .
Remarkable marketing
Newbys of course ,but they are wrapped in the comfort of a warranty .
By the times the warranties up VP have another set of newbies in the pipe line .
Or a mover upper a bigger boat now they IPS d the D12 ,who justs gets another few years grace .

I think Kashurst summarised it precisely if it all works you may cure docking anxiety but end up with reliable anxiety.

Docking anxiety is 21 st century artificially created phenonmom well done VP .

VP could have developed a range of new blocks like MAN , CAT.MTU .
D15 , D18 ,D22,D24.D32 etc - to expand into Bulders upsizing -- somthing @ every power node --- err nope .
We will build bigger legs to fit the more powerfull D6 variants and the D12 /13 and tap into "docking anxiety " infact we will create a whole new market and lob lower consumption in the mix to clinch the deal .

The Q was --would you buy a 10 y IPS 400 ---? ---- not a brand new one as a 1st boat with a view to upsizing post warranty .
Waiting for Bouba to answer the Q .

 

[Sishoe]

I owned a 9 year old Cranchi with ips 600's for a while last year (although it had only done 90hrs) and it performed faultlessly whist I had it. But where I think the previous owner didn't bother with much in the way servicing as he wasn't doing the hours, the list of items that would probably require attention and estimated costs to get the drives up to scratch was frightening. As it turned out the boat wasn't really suitable so I sold on at the end of the season last year.
I previous to that I had a new boat again with ips 600, again ran faultless for the 18 months I had it, seem to remember it was about 2.2k for vp main dealer engine and drive service.
I think ips are an attractive to newbys or people moving up from smaller outdrive powered boats, they are attractive to boat builders as cheap and quick to install (although take up a lot more room than an outdrive therefore engine room needs to be bigger). I for one won't have another ips boat even though my experience of them was on the whole positive, just too much to go wrong.

 

[Nigelpickin]

I never understand the partisan vitriol offered by some forumites with regard to IPS/PODS/Outdrives - especially given that from what I can garner, the naysayers have never owned a boat of this type.

So why it becomes an ideological issue for some, I do not know - it's not as though any of us have skin in the game, (other than the value of our own floating folly), and really - when we are talking about such a massively depreciating asset as a motor yacht or boat, what is couple of quid on VP spares and oil versus the residual loss in the sale or part ex.

For a lot of people, me included, the drive/engine set up/WOT speed/angle of the dead rise are secondary to style, comfort, space and liveability, (if you can excuse the term), of the boat.

So for the OP it comes down to this, do you like the boat, does it look right, feel right and is it in budget? Has it been serviced and can the current owner demonstrate this in paperwork? Have all the software updates and warranty recalls been dealt with and did it perform faultlessly on trial? If the answer to any of these is no then walk away - otherwise treat it like any other prospective purchase.

Personally speaking, having owned Mercruiser, Cummins, Cummins Zeus and Volvo IPS with PODS, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another boat of this type that checked out - and likewise, I'd have no problem buying a shaft drive boat. They all go from a to b, they all float and periodically they will all break down - especially from what I can tell - if you park them next to Portifino or Oldgit....

 

[Bouba]

http://www.regalownersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7873

My nieghbours Sessa 43 has constant woes with IPS 400 - approx 10 y old .
First boat too , to him had it a year had 4 days working rest probs -

VP marketing and strategy dept realised 10-15 y ago as builders were then going bigger with the intro boat north of 40 ft they would be left behind sales wise just relying on the smaller boat outdrive market .
So to stay in the game and keep the turn over ,sales , profit graphs and top brass bonuses every increasing they came up with IPS .
The USP is docking so Obviousley that side is marketed to death to the extent that simple shafts somehow need experiance and hard found skills .
But as others have said its a none issue docking a twin shaft boat .
In fact I would say easy and fun ,it's the best part of the day docking and marina manourvering using twin sticks and a bow thruster .

After D6 ips they then D12 ,ed it and now peddle it in units up to 4 in up to 100 ftrs .
Remarkable marketing
Newbys of course ,but they are wrapped in the comfort of a warranty .
By the times the warranties up VP have another set of newbies in the pipe line .
Or a mover upper a bigger boat now they IPS d the D12 ,who justs gets another few years grace .

I think Kashurst summarised it precisely if it all works you may cure docking anxiety but end up with reliable anxiety.

Docking anxiety is 21 st century artificially created phenonmom well done VP .

VP could have developed a range of new blocks like MAN , CAT.MTU .
D15 , D18 ,D22,D24.D32 etc - to expand into Bulders upsizing -- somthing @ every power node --- err nope .
We will build bigger legs to fit the more powerfull D6 variants and the D12 /13 and tap into "docking anxiety " infact we will create a whole new market and lob lower consumption in the mix to clinch the deal .

The Q was --would you buy a 10 y IPS 400 ---? ---- not a brand new one as a 1st boat with a view to upsizing post warranty .
Waiting for Bouba to answer the Q .

Not sure why you picked on me as I've already said that while I'm in favor of IPS in theory that I can't answer as far as it being ten years old.
But that would apply to any boat propulsion system, which is why I like to buy new. As far as manoevering skills, I've only ever had single engines and at present have a single shaft, diesel powered. This is on a trawler, I have electric thrusters but because she is very high sided they can be easily overwhelmed by strong winds or current. But I have experience, like many of us here, if I were new then I would definitely look at joystick control. I would also look at what my home port was like to decide if IPS would save me a lot of grief and gelcote

 

[Boat2016]

As usual there's lots of advise from people who have never been near an IPS boat and just repeating what they think is right because they heard it in the pub or read it on a forum, most owners seem to begrudge Volvo making money out of them but are quite happy to buy a Volvo powered boat, most people who buy boats are amongst high earners and making good money out of others yet seem unhappy when it's the other way round. IPS is also used commercially and like anything it's going to go wrong at some point, but from what I hear from users it's been positive and no more of a worry than an outdrive boat which uses a very similar control system. I can't really see that it's too much of a problem considering how long it's now been in production and if it was that bad then boat builders would keep well away as its them who will have the angry customer to deal with

 

[Greg2]

Don't think I would have an IPS boat of any age but acknowledging Nigelpickin's comments it is an academic point as I am unlikely to be in the market for the type of boat that has it fitted. My primary reasoning would be the level of complexity will inevitably mean higher risk of problems/ongoing maintenance issue combined with not wanting to be at the mercy of VP. As the boat gets older I suspect re-sale may become more tricky. Our Broom is a 1992 boat with twin shafts and currently on the market. At that age prospective purchasers may have some concerns they will want to check out but the drive system isn't one of them. Might be different when IPS boats reach 25 years of age.

I am also not sure that the benefits they are supposed to bring stacks up for me. Sure, better fuel efficiency is a plus but that benefit is, in my view, substantially offset by higher maintenance costs and higher risks of problems. Manouvreability can be handy - have had a go on an IPS boat and if I am honest whilst I was impressed with moving the boat around with the joystick it was probably the novelty factor that impressed me as much as anything else. Using twin shafts to manoeuvre is pretty simple, even in tight spaces and for me developing that skill is an intrinsic part of boating and good seamanship - if I had to rely on technology to do the job for me I would be thinking about another hobby. In reality ongoing maintenance with shafts is pretty minimal in comparison with IPS and despite the theoretical risks put forward by others they are also much less likely to go wrong.

I know outdrives have crept in to the debate and I would agree with others that they are probably less of a risk than IPS as they are more common and some stuff can be done by competent owners. That being the case it is more about type of boat and/or preference when it comes to choosing drives or shafts - had both and prefer the latter but would have the former if we went back to they type of boat where they make sense......ish!

 

[oldgit]

IPS is also used commercially.

A 360 degree propulsion system in one form or another has apparently been around for years at least since just post WW1.
Popular in tugs needing high maneuverbility and is now also very common in large ocean liners doing away with tug support in outlying small ports.
A company I used to work for had tugs using this method of propulsion and it was accepted the constant work needed to keep the system going, compared to standard shaft drive was just par the course.
They definately need higher care and had lower reliability but fortunately had a full time engineer aboard and shore based backup.
As for IPs and outdrives being the same, you basically have all the disadvantages of outdrives with their complicated collection of gears and materials with added mechanical and electronic complexity to make the entire thing rotate and all fully immersed in a hostile environment.
The world is full of brave folks experimenting with new technologies and pushing the bounderies of materials and this should be encouraged, especially those spending their own money to support them.


http://www.voith.com/br/products-services/power-transmission/voith-schneider-propeller-10002.html

 

[Portofino]

I did not understand the Op,s original Q which was supposed
--to exclude forumites without any IPS ownership experiance posting .
Apologies to all if that ,s the case ?

The Q was later qualified with a 10y old boat with IPS400 .One assumes that boat does not come wrapped in a warm blanket of VP warranty and software upgrades .
There been some drift into new ,buts that's a totally different Q in my view and would result in a different set of answers at least from me .
I don,t think the depreciation "man maths " argument to offset running costs apply to a 10y old prospect boats quite the contary in terms of % running costs and boat value .

I have tried to stay focused on the Q -assumed it was aimed at all forumites ?

How ever I ,am feeling there's a tendency /slide into here of the classic
"Loose the argument go for the man " syndrome .

I,am admittedly drawn on the engineering side of IPS .
In an attempt to not get personal and hopefully refocus on 10y IPS 400 ,s
I raised earlier on in a post and later supplied a link about the 5 y dropping of the pod .
It's my (With the help of Mr Google -sorry guys ) view there is a time line or hrs trigger like most service items .

As a none experianced IPS owner I would be very grateful for an experianced owner to fill in some grey areas -gaps in my knowledge please .

Perhaps Nigel ( or any other owners lurking out there ) can come in and add a bit more detail to the rubber skirt /dropping pod issue every 5 y or 1200 hrs .I suspect with most ave liesure boaters it's the time line that triggers the pod drop and skirt change out ?

Is there a forum IPS owner out there ever had a timely pod drop to change the skirt ?
If so give us( this thread ) a barometer on the $ 22000 cost / 5 years .
Thanks in anticipation

 

[petem]

Regarding outdrives, I think people tend to lose site of the fact that between them, Fairline, Princess, Sunseeker and Sealine have perhaps made the best part of 60-70,000 boats, a large chunk of these will have been fitted with outdrives, the technology or which has changed very little over the years. And that's just the four main UK manufacturers.

Many of the units fitted will have caused the owners some angst and expense but I suspect the vast majority are still afloat and continuing to give the owners some pleasure (even if they are half full of emulsified oil).

You just can't say the same for IPS drives so for that reason, "I'm Out".

 

[Nigelpickin]

How ever I ,am feeling there's a tendency /slide into here of the classic
"Loose the argument go for the man syndrome.

Is there a forum IPS owner out there ever had a timely pod drop to change the skirt ?
If so give us( this thread ) a barometer on the $ 22000 cost / 5 years .
Thanks in anticipation

You do say the funniest things Porto - I'm not calling the argument won or lost by either 'side' but time and time again, the same folk will reply to an IPS / POD question with hearsay and archived anecdotes. You've literally been quoting the $22k figure for years now and each time you do I send an email to my service guy, (Volvo accredited), and he says, well I won't say what he says because it's not polite but let's just say that he disagrees with the number.


You also used to have strong views about forward facing propellers but seem to have relaxed a little on that issue.

Now - first hand experience from me - the big service for my IPS D6 435 was in fact 5 years or 800 hours - having done 450 hours in the nearly 4 years of ownership and knowing that the boat was being passed on to a new owner - I commissioned the 5 year service and the price was €4,300. That's not including the lift out but of course the boat was coming out for service / antifoul anyway, this included oil change - magnets - seals, filters - impellers and so on; it's a grossed up figure for the engines and PODS.

New owner, very nice chap who's come from shafts to IPS and has been parked next to a Rodman on IPS for years, will not have to do another big service for 400 hours but will of course have larger service costs than before.

To counter this - I am aware that some early IPS - gen 1 boats have had issues; I've definitely heard of water ingress, filings and electronic malfunctions, like any prospective buyer - the OP must be super diligent with questions and paperwork.

And for context, our boat depreciated around 10% for each year of ownership, our marina costs and general expenses sans service were in the region of £20k per year - I'm not wanting to come across in any way as Sean Spiceresque but there is a whiff of Fake News in the air....

 

[oldgit]

(even if they are half full of emulsified oil).

Ouch

One builder never appeared to be convinced with any of the advantages of outdrives and that was Broom.
As for the much praised fuel economy of the units, it may be better at high speeds over long distances but at the sorts of speeds and trips most usually undertaken by most of us most of the time, suspect the differences fade ?

 

[petem]

One builder never appeared to be convinced with any of the advantages of outdrives and that was Broom.

Yep, and a fat lot of good it did them!

 

[ari]

Ouch

One builder never appeared to be convinced with any of the advantages of outdrives and that was Broom.
As for the much praised fuel economy of the units, it may be better at high speeds over long distances but at the sorts of speeds and trips most usually undertaken by most of us most of the time, suspect the differences fade ?

That well known builder of aft cabin boats? Might there be a good reason why they prefer a drive configuration that puts the engines toward the middle..?

As to 'the sorts of speeds and trips most usually undertaken by most of us most of the time', judging by what I see in the Solent, there are far more motor boats travelling at planing speeds than there are at displacement speed, indeed look around any marina and you'll see that the vast majority of motor boats are planing rather than displacement.

 

[Portofino]

Now - first hand experience from me - the big service for my IPS D6 435 was in fact 5 years or 800 hours - having done 450 hours in the nearly 4 years of ownership and knowing that the boat was being passed on to a new owner - I commissioned the 5 year service and the price was €4,300. That's not including the lift out but of course the boat was coming out for service / antifoul anyway, this included oil change - magnets - seals, filters - impellers and so on; it's a grossed up figure for the engines and PODS.

New owner, very nice chap who's come from shafts to IPS and has been parked next to a Rodman on IPS for years, will not have to do another big service for 400 hours but will of course have larger service costs than before.
...

sounds like that's just routine stuff to me ,lubs filters ,anodes .
Agree a bit of extra oil in the pods added to the bill is neither here nor there in the total ownership costs -spread out .
Obviously if it's milky oil coming out then like an outdrive it's gonna needs bit more investigation .

specifically I was reffering to the ----

Rubber skirt (s)

What's the service requirements ?

Just seems odd on a outdrive boat the change out time interval for the rubber keeping the sea out is 2 Years .
If I understand you correctly the pods have not been dropped for a timed skirt (s) change ?

There s somthing else engineering wise that's occured to me .
Exhaust .
Pods spin right ,the engine is screwed down does not move with the pods .
So there must be some sort of flexible joint between the exhaust pipe from the engine inside the boat and the top of the pod .
Changes in temp along with constant movement presume rotation ?
How does that seal work ? Is that a timmed service item or just inspection and replace when deemed leaky ? that's just another example of the
" Just feels too complex a solution to a problem ( presume docking ?) that does not really exsist "

 

[Sishoe]

sounds like that's just routine stuff to me ,lubs filters ,anodes .
Agree a bit of extra oil in the pods added to the bill is neither here nor there in the total ownership costs -spread out .
Obviously if it's milky oil coming out then like an outdrive it's gonna needs bit more investigation .

specifically I was reffering to the ----

Rubber skirt (s)

What's the service requirements ?

Just seems odd on a outdrive boat the change out time interval for the rubber keeping the sea out is 2 Years .
If I understand you correctly the pods have not been dropped for a timed skirt (s) change ?

There s somthing else engineering wise that's occured to me .
Exhaust .
Pods spin right ,the engine is screwed down does not move with the pods .
So there must be some sort of flexible joint between the exhaust pipe from the engine inside the boat and the top of the pod .
Changes in temp along with constant movement presume rotation ?
How does that seal work ? Is that a timmed service item or just inspection and replace when deemed leaky ? that's just another example of the
" Just feels too complex a solution to a problem ( presume docking ?) that does not really exsist "

There are no moving parts visible on the internal part of the pod, the exhaust runs through a 100mm rubber hose from the engine to a fabricated double elbow which is bolted to the rear of the pod. The exhaust then travels through the pod casing to the exit point on the back of the drive, don't think there is any moving flexible hoses on the exhaust.
The replacement flexible exhaust pipes were on of the items vp recommended be changed on my 10year old Cranchi @ £700.00 each.

 

[Boat2016]

Just done a bit of research on this and the rubber skirts that are referred to as being an expensive service item look identical to the way an outdrive seals to the transom shield and there's no mention of changing them in the service schedule, you don't change them on an outdrive eithter

 

[rubberduck]

They cost £212 each + fitting apparantly.

 

[Boat2016]

They cost £212 each + fitting apparantly.

And that's per pair required for one drive so not bad at all, and would expect you only fit new if drive needs replacing (same as you would for outdrive) as there's no mention of them in the service schedule, just looked up in the VP web shop to see things like exchange drive and gearbox prices and they are quite similar to those of exchange outdrives so not as bad as were being led to believe

 

[Greg2]

Yep, and a fat lot of good it did them!

They didn't / don't really build boats that would suit outdrives - don't tend to work too well with an aft cabin! That said I did hear tell of an old Continental that had an outdrives - can't imagine how that worked!