Integrated nav instruments?

[zoidberg]

Attached is a quite recent photo of a 'handheld' GPS receiver mounted on a mirror-arm inside the cockpit of a U2 'Dragon Lady', which is likely flying 'well above 60,000 feet' ( 10 miles up ). Note the fabric bandage securing the unit to the mount.

Can anyone identify the make and model...? And the knot....?

 

[[194224]]

Well the knot is clearly a stokers' dobie hitch.

....a dobie itch is something quite different.

 

[Slipstream 34]

Garmin gps
INNOVATION IN THE U-2 COCKPIT

 

[James_Calvert]

The "knot" is a woggle isn't it?

 

[jlavery]

Garmin gps
INNOVATION IN THE U-2 COCKPIT

Brilliant article.

Fred Drift:
The Trimble Flightmate brings back memories. It has the same form factor as my first GPS, a Trimble Ensign, which we bought in 1992 when cruising our Reactor 25 in northern New Zealand. It proved its worth on a memorable trip where I got very seasick at night. Got a GPS fix, plotted on chart, took another 10 minutes later, plotted it, drew a line, said "We're not going to hit anything" and collapsed. My girlfriend (now wife) helmed for 4 hours at night waiting for me to start making sense again, meanwhile planning to just keep sailing reciprocals.

I still have the Trimble.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The pilots of the aircraft used by BAS in the Antarctic all had GPSMAP units, entirely separate from the aircraft's own systems. Because they weren't integrated into the aircraft's systems, they weren't subject to the requirements for certification, etc. that the built-in kit had. In Antarctica that mattered, because the certified suppliers couldn't provide maps of Antarctica that were of any use at all! So I created maps for use in the GPSMAP units, which gave the pilots excellent situational awareness, with the caveat that they weren't certified and that the data varied a lot in reliability. The pilots in fact relied on these far more than on the integrated systems, as our data (with all its limitations!) was far better than anything provided by Jeppesen or the likes (I maintained the mapping database of the whole of Antarctic).

I'm not at all surprised to see a stand-alone GPS unit in use even in A U2, for all the reasons our pilots had them!

 

[jlavery]

The pilots of the aircraft used by BAS in the Antarctic all had GPSMAP units, entirely separate from the aircraft's own systems. Because they weren't integrated into the aircraft's systems, they weren't subject to the requirements for certification, etc. that the built-in kit had. In Antarctica that mattered, because the certified suppliers couldn't provide maps of Antarctica that were of any use at all! So I created maps for use in the GPSMAP units, which gave the pilots excellent situational awareness, with the caveat that they weren't certified and that the data varied a lot in reliability. The pilots in fact relied on these far more than on the integrated systems, as our data (with all its limitations!) was far better than anything provided by Jeppesen or the likes (I maintained the mapping database of the whole of Antarctic).

I'm not at all surprised to see a stand-alone GPS unit in use even in A U2, for all the reasons our pilots had them!

Agree, uncertified doesn't mean unreliable - and can be implemented swiftly. With the caveat that if things go wrong, you'd better have also been using the "official" tools.

The 747 captain using a Philips World Atlas to identify Ultima Thule when I was in the cockpit jumpseat in the 80s was a good use of existing publications!

 

[Refueler]

Trimble ... haven't heard that name for a while ....

Trimble that I used / knew - was the Military Spec version using the dual freq (one being not available to 'public' use ....

I look back on it and think - blimey compared to todays units ... archaic !!!

 

[ylop]

I'm not at all surprised to see a stand-alone GPS unit in use even in A U2, for all the reasons our pilots had them!

I'm not surprised by that - but I am surprised at the bandage as an improvised mount.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Agree, uncertified doesn't mean unreliable - and can be implemented swiftly. With the caveat that if things go wrong, you'd better have also been using the "official" tools.

The 747 captain using a Philips World Atlas to identify Ultima Thule when I was in the cockpit jumpseat in the 80s was a good use of existing publications!

Actually, in Antarctica, an accident was more likely to result from the "official" maps, which were wildly wrong! Neither JNC nor ONC maps were of any use whatsoever, and Jeppesen etc. hadn't advanced beyond them; I'd have known if they had because they'd have had to approach me for the data!

Where did the Philips World Atlas think Ultima Thule was? I know of many possible candidates, from the Orkneys to Svalbard! It's definitely something where the ancient authors weren't clear enough, and Pytheas (the guy who originated the concept) wasn't very clear in his description, and in any case, we don't have hids original writing, only quotations in later authors.

From his description, it's likely Pytheas went beyond the Arctic Circle, as one of his descriptions corresponds pretty well with newly forming sea-ice.

 

[jlavery]

Actually, in Antarctica, an accident was more likely to result from the "official" maps, which were wildly wrong! Neither JNC nor ONC maps were of any use whatsoever, and Jeppesen etc. hadn't advanced beyond them; I'd have known if they had because they'd have had to approach me for the data!

Where did the Philips World Atlas think Ultima Thule was? I know of many possible candidates, from the Orkneys to Svalbard! It's definitely something where the ancient authors weren't clear enough, and Pytheas (the guy who originated the concept) wasn't very clear in his description, and in any case, we don't have hids original writing, only quotations in later authors.

From his description, it's likely Pytheas went beyond the Arctic Circle, as one of his descriptions corresponds pretty well with newly forming sea-ice.

I thought you'd say that about the antarctic mapping - doubt much Jeppesen coverage there!

We were flying over Greenland, so it was Thule, Greenland.

 

[Refueler]

I thought you'd say that about the antarctic mapping - doubt much Jeppesen coverage there!

We were flying over Greenland, so it was Thule, Greenland.

My Father was CAA Flight Ops on first British Commercial test flight over North Pole ... I still have his 'Nav Computers' used to do the flight ...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I thought you'd say that about the antarctic mapping - doubt much Jeppesen coverage there!

We were flying over Greenland, so it was Thule, Greenland.

Thule (Greenland) is not the same as Ultima Thule (far North location mentioned by ancient Greek and Roman authors). Of course, Thule in Greenland was named after the classical references, but it's not the same place. Ultima Thule (assuming it's a real place) would be in the NE Atlantic; candidates include Orkney, Shetland, Faroes, Norway and Iceland. Most of the authors who quoted Pytheas regarded him as an unreliable source because they had no experience of Arctic conditions, but the descriptions they have preserved suggest that Pytheas had seen young sea-ice.

 

[jlavery]

Thule (Greenland) is not the same as Ultima Thule (far North location mentioned by ancient Greek and Roman authors). Of course, Thule in Greenland was named after the classical references, but it's not the same place. Ultima Thule (assuming it's a real place) would be in the NE Atlantic; candidates include Orkney, Shetland, Faroes, Norway and Iceland. Most of the authors who quoted Pytheas regarded him as an unreliable source because they had no experience of Arctic conditions, but the descriptions they have preserved suggest that Pytheas had seen young sea-ice.

Indeed, I misquoted from my classical education!

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It works great until it doesn't. I have a Spanish chum who knows from experience in (over) Yugoslavia that hacking together quick solutions can be fraught with danger.(To unintended innocent people on the ground).
The use of uncertified GPS receivers and charting in commercial flight ops is a big no-no these days.

Of course it can be a very fast and extremely cost effective upgrade when done with care. Modifying an aircraft design costs the big dollars.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

It works great until it doesn't. I have a Spanish chum who knows from experience in (over) Yugoslavia that hacking together quick solutions can be fraught with danger.(To unintended innocent people on the ground).
The use of uncertified GPS receivers and charting in commercial flight ops is a big no-no these days.

Of course it can be a very fast and extremely cost effective upgrade when done with care. Modifying an aircraft design costs the big dollars.

Unfortunately, in Antarctica the "official" solutions either don't exist or are in chocolate teapot territory (I'm being polite - highly dangerous might be a better description). As I maintained the major map database for Antarctica, I think you can assume that the data I used were the best available. That doesn't mean it was perfect - but there was (and is) nothing better.