Insurance Question

[DeeGee]

A friend who clearly thinks me the fount of all wisdom (the fool!!) sent me this email today. He works in a community care facility, funded by govt grants, I think. His client/friends are relatively less well-off ordinary folk, although his question is relevant to the more general case of <font color=blue>‘taking work acquaintances sailing’</font color=blue>. I would appreciate any well-informed comments.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

“I have been taking people on the boat on and off from our work place and it has occurred to me that i may be liable for accidents and even the boat may not be covered, our work place are not covered for us to take people on the water - so they would have to come as our friends

what do i need to do in order to cover us, should we take out public
liability, or get people to sign a disclaimer”

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<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[chas]

I would have thought he would be covered under any normal policy as long as they were "friends" and not paying for the trip.

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[Stingo]

You could always phone your insurance company and ask

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> <font color=blue>- still showing at a computer near you</font color=blue>

 

[jhr]

Hmm. I'd be very cautious about this. Your friend's colleagues and/or clients can sign all the waivers and disclaimers he gives them but if there's an accident and a firm of ambulance-chasing solicitors gets involved, he could find himself exposed, particularly if they could prove negligence on his part. I am neither a lawyer nor a loss adjuster but I have involvement at work with employer liability issues, and I suspect a strong argument could be assembled, making the case that the outings were work-related.

Better be safe than sorry, in my opinion. In which case, I see three options:

1) Never take anybody out if there is any link with work,
2) Get written confirmation from his insurers that the existing cover will suffice for these particular circumstances,
3) Take out specific additional public liability/third party insurance. Expensive, no doubt...........

Funny old world, innit?

All imho.

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[arran]

I agree with the last post ask the insurance company. In addition get RNLI to check boat safety equipment (I believe for a small donation they are happy to do this). What insurance companies say is no substitute for a safe boat in the first place.

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[bedouin]

Not an expert, but I'm pretty certain 3rd party/public liability insurance won't cover "crew".

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[AndrewB]

I sympathise DeeGee, this must be a concern. It's particularly so with children. I used to take groups out (non-paying, of course) quite regularly, but have stopped now following the well-publicised cases involving accidents on school trips.

My partner who works in a solicitor's firm offered to take out a group of her colleagues a month or so ago. I bristled at the implications but the suggestion to issue a disclaimer was apparently greeted with hoots of laughter.

Cases in the UK seem rare, but they do get mentioned on US forums. It seems there as if the presumed ability of the person to understand the risks involved - i.e. their sailing experience - is nearly as important as the skipper's safety procedures, to the legal outcome.

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[Peppermint]

Re: I\'m no expert but..

.. firstly hire and reward is not just about charging for the trip. So just because money isn't changing hands doesn't put you in the clear. Check with your insurers.

The way to avoid liability is to take responsibility. You would not only need to operate in a safe way but be able to demonstrate that you were safe. So your into systems, records, qualifications etc. just like at work.

It's true that disclaimers are toilet paper to the legal profession.

Remember anyone you sail with can claim if you appear negligent even family members. There is case law where a guy successfuly sued a company following an industrial accident even though he owned the company and was it's sole employee. Sometimes legal action is the only way to get insurers to pay out.

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[Sybarite]

First you must establish that you are not doing it for reward eg even indirectly. Say you regularly brought the same person out and this person was in a position to influence your career.

You should not charge for the use of the boat; clubbing together for incidental expenses (meals mooring fees etc) would be ok. You must not give the impression of carrying out a secondary commercial activity.

You should not lend your boat without being on it - disguised charter.

Once these points are clear that you are not a professional I don't see any problem in inviting friends or colleagues out - IMHO.

John

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[duncan]

Re: I\'m no expert but..

agree and would add that a reference to the skippers and, where applicable, crews experience in words that individuals could be deemed to have understood, plus details of the proposed trip and what it entails (timing, weather, conditions) shoould all be included as part of the SAFETY BRIEFING (yes I am shouting) that should be given ideally before people even go on the pontoon, although it clearly needs to be continued onboard to include equipement and hazards.

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[Bergman]

Re: Don\'t wish to make it worse

but there may be an argument that you are operating the boat commercially.

Which means the boat must be inspected and registered and equipped as a small commercial vessel and that you must have a commercial endorsement to your Coastal Skipper /Yachtmaster ticket - mind last person I said this to had a Master's Certificate so if you have - sorry.

In any case I would certainly check with insurers and GET IT IN WRITING, saying and doing are not always the same with insurers.

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[BrendanS]

Re: Don\'t wish to make it worse

I'm not sure I see the differentiation here.

Say I'm chatting to you here on the forum and you say lets pop out on my boat this evening

What's different to chatting to you at work and you say lets pop out on my boat this evening

If we're friends, and it's not on a work related do, there is no real difference. It could even be work related: "sod this, I want to get out of the office. Lets pop down to the boat this evening, and talk about it while we are more relaxed."

You don't have to take out tons of insurance to go play golf with people, and loads of work gets done there. Allegedly!


<hr width=100% size=1>Err, let me know if Depsol enters the forum, I'll go and hide

 

[paulrossall]

I think it is a great pity if someone wants to take a group of people, who would not normally get the chance, on a boat trip has to get over concerned about rules and regulations. Any boat owner or skipper has to make sure his crew/visitors etc. get a brief talk about safety, life jackets, fire exstinguishers etc. He also has to make sure they realise who is BOSS and ensure folk do what he says immediately.
I would prefer to have another experienced person with me if I was takeing people out in the situation just described. However I refused to get paranoid about what if situations and believe life is for living to the maximum without being foolhardy. If I have acted carefully, giving the amount of consideration I would exercise if I were taking my wife and kids out, then my concience would be clear no matter what happened.

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[Peppermint]

Re: Golf Clubs

Do have a bit of cover though. Their PL insurance covers you.

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[oldharry]

Thats the problem though Paul - your conscience may be clear, but that wont stop insurers/lawyers etc chasing you for huge sums in 'compensation' if something goes wrong. I help look after a group of adults with a Learning Difficulty. I also hold a Class V and VI DOT Boatmans Licence meaning I am qualified to take command of a passenger vessel carrying up to 200 passengers. I wanted to take my people out on the water in my own boat in my own time. Just me taking some friends out. No problem?

Dont you beleive it! Firstly, because I am a paid 'carer' I have at all times a legal 'duty of care' to the people I care for - whether or not I am on duty. That in turn means that if I take them out in my own time, I have the same legal status as when I am gainfully employed - they therefore become my passengers in the legal sense. That then means my boat becomes a commercial craft and is required to be registered as a commercial pleasure boat, with all that that entails in the way of surveys, tests and approvals to gain certification. It also means my boat has to be insured for commercial use.

Secondly, because I am qualified to take command of a Passenger vessel, I again have 'professional duties of care', even though I would be working voluntarily. Again my commercial qualifications mean that I am effectively 'carrying passengers' - because a paid relationship exists between us - even though I am not paid for this particular outing.

Mixing boating with ones paid employment - regardless of whether any money changes hand - immediately raises all kinds of questions about legal liabilities, and the legal status (which is what this debate is about) of anyone taking others from the work place out in their boat is dubious in the extreme. It must be demonstrably clear that the outing has no connection with any aspect at all of your business, and that your Company or employers will not gain any advantage however indirectly. The 'private pleasure' use defined in your insurance is a very narrow band and you risk stepping outside it as soon as your work place becomes involved. apparently even organising an office party on the boat is suspect from the Insurers point of view!

The end result for me is - sadly - my people dont get to go out in my boat. Its just simpler and much cheaper to take them on a trip boat or to a sailing school.

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[chriscallender]

This all seems very sad, because the conclusion I come too from what you have said is that an inexperieced sailor with no experience as a carer would have no/less trouble getting insurance cover for this than you would! Where's the sense in that?

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[Bergman]

Re: Don\'t wish to make it worse

I think it depends on the facts. Not entirely clear from original posting, but it was talk of "clients" that raised the thought in my mind.

If the skipper is receiving some form of payment, perhaps normal salary and he takes people sailing as part of the work he is being paid to do then I think he is "professional" and boat is "commercial"

I'm no lawyer thank God but it did seem to me a possibility

Agree with you that taking a group of friends for a sail - no problem. Its when money and payments become involved that it gets complicated, and as I read the case to be "work related" I thought it worth mentioning.



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[DeeGee]

My conclusions...

Some v helpful points raised in these responses, thanks!

I have come to the following conclusions, for better or worse.

Third-party insurance covers one for claims for damages where it was alleged one was NEGLIGENT. No negligence, no claim.

However, virtually all 'sailing for pleasure' insurance policies will exclude all liability to any claims when craft used for hire or commercial purposes. So I agree that one doesn't take any money - except for share of provisions.

I can't foresee an argument that the 'friend' was only a friend by virtue of a client relationship, and that some different duty of care existed, beyond that for any other.

One does have a duty of care, however, even for taking genuine friends and family sailing. If you, as a skipper, know that an individual has years of experience, then the duty of care is less than that which is due to a friend who has never been sailing before. Hard to define, but nevertheless true.

To anticipate the possible horror claims that may be perpertrated on a skipper taking f & f as crew and an accident happening, d-o-c should always include...

<font color=blue>1) ensuring that your boat was as safe as you could reasonably make it. Flares in date, lifejackets available, etc... ( I may also take advantage of the RNLI Seacheck)

2) written safety procedures

3) Make an entry in the log for the voyage that one has gone over the s.p before the voyage.</font color=blue>

I shall add Nos 2 & 3 to 1 which I normally do anyway (more or less, anyway).

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all