INEOS AC 2-0

[Triassic]

I'm not quite sure what all the squabbling around that last cross is all about. As soon as both boats gybed onto converging tacks it was obvious that it was going to be close and Ben immediately started doing everything he could to cross ahead, and LR started doing everything they could to prevent it. You can quite clearly hear that on both boats onboard commentary. That's what racing is all about and we wouldn't want it any other way. The dial down rule doesn't apply downwind so LR was quite within their rights provided they left an option open to Ben but I don't think there was ever a chance of LR hitting him even if they wanted to, and the umpires saw it that way. As everybody has said that last minute swerve was all "Hollywood" and it made it all the more exciting for us..... and especially for all the non sailors watching........

 

[adwuk]

Wondering if someone can clear up my understanding - I know that LR were entitled to hunt Ben and team, but were they allowed to make repeated course alterations? I was of the view (perhaps incorrectly) that you could dial down, but then had to hold your course to allow the other boat a chance to bail out if they felt they could not cross.

 

[Topcat47]

Anyone else bee watching Ben & Co Nail it? Patriot's flying lesson was spectacular and it's nice to see us sticking it to the I?talians for once.

 

[Bobc]

Wondering if someone can clear up my understanding - I know that LR were entitled to hunt Ben and team, but were they allowed to make repeated course alterations? I was of the view (perhaps incorrectly) that you could dial down, but then had to hold your course to allow the other boat a chance to bail out if they felt they could not cross.

So the way it works is as follows:-

As the two boats begin to converge, the give way boat has the option of coming up and going behind the right of way boat, or gybing away. If the give way boat decides that it is clear past and carries on, there comes a point where that boat no longer has the ability to come up and go behind or gybe (not ability to avoid). At this point, the right of way boat MUST NOT alter course in a way that changes the give way boat's clearance.

So basically, once you are past the point on no return, the boat on starboard must hold course, which Jimmy didn't do.

 

[Triassic]

I don't think Jimmy ever thought they were going to hit but he was doing everything he could to make it look as if they might in the hope that Ben would chicken out early, or he could make it look as if he had to take avoiding action (even if he didn't) in order to win a protest. The first is entirely legitimate, the second questionable sportsmanship, but lets face it this is high stakes racing and he wouldn't be very good at his job if he didn't try it. We need and want these sailors to push the very limits of all aspects of this competition as it makes it exciting, be jolly boring it they didn't take chances.........

 

[Triassic]

So the way it works is as follows:-

As the two boats begin to converge, the give way boat has the option of coming up and going behind the right of way boat, or gybing away. If the give way boat decides that it is clear past and carries on, there comes a point where that boat no longer has the ability to come up and go behind or gybe (not ability to avoid). At this point, the right of way boat MUST NOT alter course in a way that changes the give way boat's clearance.

So basically, once you are past the point on no return, the boat on starboard must hold course, which Jimmy didn't do.

I think that's an interpretation of the rules, rather than the actual rule. Rule 16.1 and 2 are:

CHANGING COURSE

When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

In addition, on a beat to windward when a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass to leeward of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not bear away if as a result the port-tack boat must change course immediately to continue keeping clear.

So to apply it to the incident under discussion LR complies with the first rule because at no point did Ben not have room to keep clear.

The second rule technically doesn't apply as they weren't sailing to windward, however if they had been then the starboard tack boat can't dial down once the port tack boat is keeping clear astern (however I believe they can do so if they do it before the port tack boat has altered course to keep clear......but I'll let Flaming step in and sort that one out... )

 

[Mudisox]

It is a common call for umpires in normal match racing, Especially for mere mortals in displacement boats, on entry.

This is from what I listen to on the umpire's net as RO. - see RRS C2.6 and maybe 13.3 of that rule.
However there may be other rule changes made for the Prada cup

 

[TLouth7]

You are mixing up a number of different rules here, and some of the rules pre-start are different to post-start.

Certainly the situation when two boats meet is governed by a number of different rules, in fact it is an entire section of the rulebook. The fact remains that your assertion that

Once you have declared yourself as right-of-way boat, you must hold your course. If you alter course, you lose your rights.

is simply incorrect. Further, the rules are not different before the start, there is an apparent difference simply because boats have no proper course before that time. Thus a leeward boat that has established an overlap is free to luff the windward boat up to head to wind, which it would not be able to do after the gun.

So basically, once you are past the point on no return, the boat on starboard must hold course, which Jimmy didn't do.

I agree with this, inasmuch as the right-of-way boat cannot at the last moment cause a collision. They can of course alter course to close any gap, or in the other direction.

 

[Triassic]

It is a common call for umpires in normal match racing, Especially for mere mortals in displacement boats on entry.

This is from what I listen to on the umpire's net as RO. - see RRS C2.6 and maybe 13.3 of that rule.
However there may be other rule changes made for the Prada cup

Those rules apply to boats whilst tacking or gybing, I would suggest both boats were well beyond that when this encounter occurred?

 

[flaming]

So the way it works is as follows:-

As the two boats begin to converge, the give way boat has the option of coming up and going behind the right of way boat, or gybing away. If the give way boat decides that it is clear past and carries on, there comes a point where that boat no longer has the ability to come up and go behind or gybe (not ability to avoid). At this point, the right of way boat MUST NOT alter course in a way that changes the give way boat's clearance.

So basically, once you are past the point on no return, the boat on starboard must hold course, which Jimmy didn't do.

You're basically right, but as Triassic says, you're a little guilty of adding things to the RRS which aren't there.

The rules in question are

10 ON OPPOSITE TACKS When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat.

No argument that INEOS on port has to give way to LR on starboard.
So the real debate here is

16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

Note that this makes no mention of "reducing clearances" or holding course.

So from a rules point of view it's very simple, when LR altered course towards INEOS for the final time, were INEOS able to react to that and keep clear.

Think of it this way. As the boats approach INEOS is crossing ahead. If LR turns towards INEOS they must give INEOS room to keep clear. LR are fully entitled to go hunting, to keep turning towards INEOS, provided that at every stage INEOS have room to continue to keep clear.
So the umpires will be monitoring if the boats will cross and if LR are turning towards INEOS. Clearly they deemed that INEOS was clear ahead until the final turn towards them by LR, and that this turn did not allow INEOS room to continue to keep clear.

In practice, in these boats, hunting is going to be very difficult as if you bear down too much you will slow drastically, and the room required to manoeuvre these boats is quite large, especially at nearly 80 knots closing speed. Having viewed it a few times, I think Spitall was just a tiny bit too far back to force the penalty. Very close though.[/quote]

 

[Bobc]

You're basically right, but as Triassic says, you're a little guilty of adding things to the RRS which aren't there.

The rules in question are

Agreed, and very well put.

 

[RJJ]

You're basically right, but as Triassic says, you're a little guilty of adding things to the RRS which aren't there.

The rules in question are

"So from a rules point of view it's very simple, when LR altered course towards INEOS for the final time, were INEOS able to react to that and keep clear and did they need to. "

I'd like to look at the boatspeed chart in the seconds leading up to this. It looked to me as though LR were firmly in "soak" mode already and slower than INEOS. Again, that's what you'd do to pass safely behind if you were the port-tack boat.

Presumably the umpires have some form of AIS-functionality that can tell them what's the CPA at any given time?

 

[flaming]

Presumably the umpires have some form of AIS-functionality that can tell them what's the CPA at any given time?

I think so.
There is an electronic "safety diamond" around each boat that apparently was not breached.

 

[bedouin]

"So from a rules point of view it's very simple, when LR altered course towards INEOS for the final time, were INEOS able to react to that and keep clear and did they need to. "

They didn't need to alter course as they crossed ahead of LR and Spithill's last second turn of the wheel didn't make a significant difference to that.

But these aren't dinghies that can turn on a sixpence - I would think you would have to allow 20-30 seconds to set up for and execute a tack/gybe and there certainly wasn't time for that

 

[Triassic]

There's a great quote in the NZ press from Francesco Bruni, who was the co-helm on LR.

"I think you have to just digest that decision. I think it was very close; the front of the boat always feels a lot closer than it probably is. We'll review the video...it's (the referee's) decision in the end. There's nothing you can do. I think it was close, but it was probably green only by a couple of metres; that's racing."

So even he is saying that it might have been close, but it was clear. Ben clearly took a huge chance but he's supposed to be quite good and in his judgement it was on, and ultimately he was right because they didn't hit each other...... Not quite sure how popular he would have been if he got it wrong!

 

[Triassic]

Oops, is that rule about having to link your quotes still around on here...? Just in case here it is!

America's Cup 2021: Luna Rossa's Jimmy Spithill questions umpire's call in Prada Cup loss to Ineos Team UK - NZ Herald

 

[Laser310]

So from a rules point of view it's very simple, when LR altered course towards INEOS for the final time, were INEOS able to react to that and keep clear.

and, the performance of INEOS proves that LR's change of course was within the rules - INEOS _did_ keep clear

at no point is LR required to hold their course

One thing I see in this thread is that many people are quoting RRS fleet racing rules...

Match racing, generally, is governed by Appendix C.., which changes or even deletes some of the RRS rules - for example 16.2, the part of 16 that begins "In addition...", and has been quoted in this thread.., is deleted in appendix C

The Americas Cup has, for many cycles now, been governed by its own version of the match racing rules.., which although they are based on Appendix C..,, have substantial differences. For example, the keep clear polygon is added- it's in the definitions.

Here is a link. RRS AC Edition

The definition of Keep Clear is more or less the same in the regular RRS and the AC RRS - it basically adds the polygon

Not only is a ROW boat not obligated to hold its course.., but a give way boat _only_ keeps clear if (when overlapped, which they weren't, by my eye, once the boats turned down) the ROW boat _can_ change course in both directions without immediately making contact ( AC: intersection of polygons)

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Just wondering if there were a collision at these sort of speeds.

If both foiling, and you clouted the last third of a boat, would you just largely spin them round, as most of the boat is out of the water and most of the impact absorbed ? You would still probably loose the rigs.

 

[Bobc]

Just wondering if there were a collision at these sort of speeds.

If both foiling, and you clouted the last third of a boat, would you just largely spin them round, as most of the boat is out of the water and most of the impact absorbed ? You would still probably loose the rigs.

People would end up in hospital I suspect.

 

[Laser310]

Just wondering if there were a collision at these sort of speeds.

It depends...

If it were just a little "love tap" in a luff.., some repairs might be needed, but the boats might even finish the race

Port - starboard on the foils? two boats might never race again..., and we just hope that nobody gets killed

these boats are pretty un-maneuverable off the foils, so I think low speed contact in the pre-start is possible.

I raced on a 60ft cat for a few seasons, and in a very light air pre-start of about 6 of these boats, two collided in part because they couldn't maneuver quickly enough. Both needed months in the shed.