Induction Hob (and air fryer)

[Neeves]

Enough with the petty insults.

You started the series of posts on your lithium install in this thread:
DIY lithium for novices!

Here in post #27 you even posted a photo of your catamaran discussing where lithium batteries, fuses etc of the new electrical system would be fitted in this vessel. In reality you had sold this catamaran long before this post. Why this subterfuge?

In subsequent threads it is clear that you have actually installed a lithium battery in a camper trailer or something similar. You have never pointed this out, or clarified exactly where this lithium battery and electrical system are installed.

I don’t understand the reason for this misrepresentation. It is unfair to forum members taking the trouble to offer you advice and it is misleading for those who may try to copy your system believing it is a system that can be safely installed on their yacht.

You now claim this lithium installation will be duplicated in some future yacht. If this is the case (and frankly I am skeptical) you need a total rethink. The idea of relying on the BMS to terminate the solar charging, while acceptable in a camper trailer, is not safe in a yacht. You need to install a solar controller. With a drop-in lithium battery, if there is no automatic termination of the charging from a solar controller then sooner or later you are bound to have an event where the BMS will totally shut down the battery. This will leave the yacht suddenly without vital systems such as navigational equipment, depth sounder, VHF, navigational lights and autopilot. This is not safe.

In addition, if you want electric cooking (and this seem to one of your goals) you would be silly to give up the added solar yield given by an MPPT controller. With a camper trailer there is plenty of ground space around the campsite to add additional solar panels (foldable solar blankets are often used), but on a yacht shade free space to fit solar panels is at a premium. You need to extract the maximum yield from each watt if electric cooking is the goal. This is only possible with an MPPT solar controller.

The type of solar panels will also make a difference. The foldable solar blankets used when camping are comprised of "12v" panels which do not require voltage conversion. Yachts incorporating electric cooking typical install higher voltage panels. These require a controller with MPPT technology.

So for numerous reasons you cannot leave out a solar regulator if you want to install something identical in a yacht at some stage in the future.

The essential nature of a solar controller is just one difference between a lithium install in a camper trailer and a yacht. Concentrating just on the charging system, you also need to design the alternator, and shore power charging based on the application. For example, a perfectly acceptable and simple shore power system on a camper trailer could cause expensive stray current corrosion if duplicated on yacht.

I don’t see anything wrong with discussing the techniques and equipment you have used installing your lithium system in a camper trailer, providing you make this distinction clear. Your desire to continually obscure this important detail is unnecessary and unhelpful. You need to stop attacking members who point out the technical differences between this and a marine system. It is important people are aware of these differences if considering duplicating your system on yacht.

I have clearly stated I am learning. If the build was on a yacht it would take for ever, as we would use a swing mooring. I'm making the mistakes now - not then.

Members volunteer their advice if they are unhappy they need not post. Maybe you should take a leaf out of your own book, stop being self righteous and explain why you missed data flaw in your anchor. Your thread was incorrect yet many took the information at face value and bought an anchor - you do not feel compelled to correct your omission so people are using the anchor you recommended in ignorance of its poor performance. In your position I would be correcting the error and keeping my head down - and certainly not criticising others.

I suggest you put your idea of camping to bed and mull over your own inadequacies.

Jonathan.

 

[Neeves]

It might work in the short term, but not the long term. Cheap shunts that are not programmable will start to run out of sync. Even BMS SOC readings very quickly show the wrong state of charge. It is possible to have several lithium batteries in parallel and they all show different states of charge at BMS level.

Cheap Drop in lithium batteries are not suitable for boats. Not being able to see what is happening at cell level is their major failing. None of them use active balancers. You only need to go on some of the dedicated lithium forums to read the tales of woe.
The basics. Cheap drop in batteries use passive balancers. These balance at mV level. If you have a bad cell or the cells were not balanced well when assembled, there is little you can do to correct the problem. You can't even see what the problem is as you have no access to cell voltages. The BMS can only shut down if a cell spikes to the high voltage threshold setting. You don't want this on a boat.
Passive balancers use resistors. They simply burn off the excess voltage on the highest cell using resistors. These resistors sit on the cell pack within the battery case. Often they can create a hot spot on one or more cells. Long term this can damage a cell, increasing the need for cell balancing. Something that passive balancers do badly.
With a good charging regime, you could probably manage a lot of the issues associated with Cheap drop in batteries. Cell voltage spikes are more of a problem at high states of charge. Using a top quality shunt to control the MPPT could keep the battery less that 80% charged where the poor top balance of the Cheap battery won't cause a HVE. You won't achieve this any other way, regardless of what you think.

We are aware that battery mons go out of sync, not only cheap ones - we had to set up our Xantrex system when this happened.

I'm taking your advice on board.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

You started the series of posts on your lithium install in this thread:
DIY lithium for novices!

Most people when they post a thread don't include much detail of the application or of the yacht.

We don't currently have a yacht and I used a generic photo of a yacht (ours), similar to a new one we may buy - production times are currently infinite and we may buy a newish second hand one. I tried to include as much detail as possible of the installation based on our historic ownership - I felt the thread should be used on 'as close to reality' as possible.

I have quickly identified, from detailed builds by Geem, Pete7 et al that lithium builds are not simply copying Lead but sticking in a Lithium battery - so decided, as I have time on my hands and no anchors to test , to use the time fruitfully and build a Lithium house bank on terra firma. If we had a yacht I'd spend much time simply commuting - as it is I can walk out of the front door and come back in when I have forgotten the correct spanner. Everything is currently based in or on a house, panels on the roof, cables strung across the roof and from there to the battery, controller, shunt, meter, inverter. As we have a working set up, though there is a debate on whether it is working we are also testing appliances to see what works and does not (and find my ideas of an inverter at 1,500 watts is way too small (lesson learnt), at least for an induction hob, which encouraged me to open the thread on the Aldi induction hob.

My end objective is to have a workable system neatly packed in a box, call it a cupboard, that can be re-installed on a yacht with the minimum of experimentation on how it will fit and be wired.

Yes - much or all of the work is based in a house (why would I do it anywhere else). You would possibly not be surprised to learn that much anchor work is done on a beach, maybe in shallow water. Just look at Prof Knox work on anchors - not a yacht in site - just a rig and John and his wife operating a purchase system. I tested the elasticity of climbing rope using a 4x4 a tree and a load cell. Abrasion of dyneema was tested, not by me, by using a cinder block as a pendulum and observing the effects of the swinging block scraping on different fibres.

The reason so much marine testing is done on land - its cheaper and more convenient and without the economy and convenience - most work is simply too expensive for the media to support.

I apologise if I am misusing the forum or you feel you have been misled - but I note that all the comment on my work is from people who have been there, done that - on a yacht. If I had not stuck my neck out those learned posts by others on the mistakes I have made, am making, would not have been crafted.

I do note that this thread has had 1,000 views - either people find it interesting or are very bored. I like to think forum members are a discerning lot and only read topics of interest to them and it seems, despite Noelex protestations, there is interest in the thread and similar threads.

Just read post 1. DIY lithium for novices!

What I will do is summarise what I have learnt which will identify what the gaps are.

One thing that comes through is - you need to build your own battery bank. I think this is a big, insurmountable for many, deterrent. I assume there must be reliable off the shelf batteries (but the preference here is - build your own). It merits note - I think building your own battery at home will be infinitely more convenient than on a yacht. Currently I'm buying off the shelf components and wiring them together (you need lots of cable and cable ins not cheap). There are lots of sources for components (the cable runs for the panels are long (longer than you would have on a yacht - see my thread on using domestic copper wiring ). This may all seem expensive - but I have a ready market for a working system - it will cover my costs (my labour is free) - and its 'part of' a hobby.

Jonathan

Other common, ie multiple people, advice:

Victron everything.

I think Victron can supply every single components you need (including batteries ?). You need very big pockets. Pocket size is partially because Australia is a long way from Holland and shipping and middlemen add costs. We have nothing against Victron, we had a trouble free inverter/charger on Josepheline. There are other sources for kit - some are cheaper and some are cheaper and have endorsement here.

I think if you are buying some Victron kit then bite the bullet and have a Victron system, if you have any issues - you will get better support than if you have a mix of suppliers - but I apply this across instrumentation (if you want a Raymarine AP it will be easier to integrate if everything else is Raymarine).

Use a 500 amp shunt, shunts, the same shunts, come with an option for the size of shunt. I don't know why a 500 amp shunt when the battery bank might only be 200 amp (equivalent to 400 amp of Lead). Most people would give their eye teeth just to have a 200 amp Lithium system - so why 500 amp ??

Geem recommends, suggests, a 24v system - he recognises the costs of cables . A 24v system. may restrict the options for other components as the big market (I hesitate to mention it) is caravans and motor homes - most of which are 12v.

BUT - on costs over 10 years the costs are not that high

and a further edit

I have read that if you want to extend your Lithium power (by adding an extra battery) then you should use the same sized battery from the same batch. The same size seems relatively easy, from the same batch sounds considerably more difficult (or impossible if its a few months later).

I don't know the reasoning (except it sounds a good marketing ploy).

Basically define your power requirements and then increase them and 'overbuild' initially and then you do not need to add a further battery. Note: Parkinson's Law defines that:

'The power needs will expand to slightly more than any increased capacity'

Jonathan

 

[geem]

Most people when they post a thread don't include much detail of the application or of the yacht.

We don't currently have a yacht and I used a generic photo of a yacht (ours), similar to a new one we may buy - production times are currently infinite and we may buy a newish second hand one. I tried to include as much detail as possible of the installation based on our historic ownership - I felt the thread should be used on 'as close to reality' as possible.

I have quickly identified, from detailed builds by Geem, Pete7 et al that lithium builds are not simply copying Lead but sticking in a Lithium battery - so decided, as I have time on my hands and no anchors to test , to use the time fruitfully and build a Lithium house bank on terra firma. If we had a yacht I'd spend much time simply commuting - as it is I can walk out of the front door and come back in when I have forgotten the correct spanner. Everything is currently based in or on a house, panels on the roof, cables strung across the roof and from there to the battery, controller, shunt, meter, inverter. As we have a working set up, though there is a debate on whether it is working we are also testing appliances to see what works and does not (and find my ideas of an inverter at 1,500 watts is way too small (lesson learnt), at least for an induction hob, which encouraged me to open the thread on the Aldi induction hob.

My end objective is to have a workable system neatly packed in a box, call it a cupboard, that can be re-installed on a yacht with the minimum of experimentation on how it will fit and be wired.

Yes - much or all of the work is based in a house (why would I do it anywhere else). You would possibly not be surprised to learn that much anchor work is done on a beach, maybe in shallow water. Just look at Prof Knox work on anchors - not a yacht in site - just a rig and John and his wife operating a purchase system. I tested the elasticity of climbing rope using a 4x4 a tree and a load cell. Abrasion of dyneema was tested, not by me, by using a cinder block as a pendulum and observing the effects of the swinging block scraping on different fibres.

The reason so much marine testing is done on land - its cheaper and more convenient and without the economy and convenience - most work is simply too expensive for the media to support.

I apologise if I am misusing the forum or you feel you have been misled - but I note that all the comment on my work is from people who have been there, done that - on a yacht. If I had not stuck my neck out those learned posts by others on the mistakes I have made, am making, would not have been crafted.

I do note that this thread has had 1,000 views - either people find it interesting or are very bored. I like to think forum members are a discerning lot and only read topics of interest to them and it seems, despite Noelex protestations, there is interest in the thread and similar threads.

Just read post 1. DIY lithium for novices!

Jonathan

If you want to build a system for a yacht, you should seriously consider building a 24v system. The big advantage of lithium if you have the acreage for solar panels,i s the ability to cook on an induction hob, boil the kettle on the induction hob, use the immersion heater and run a large AC watermaker. To do all this, a good 3kw low frequency inverter will do the trick. Running the batteries, and all ancillaries at 24v means that the BMS can handle twice as many watts. The BMS are rated in amps. Double the volts, halves the amps so you get a lot of power through your 24v battery. Most yacht systems can be run at 12v through a dropper. Lighting works great at 24v including nav lights. Cables can be smaller for the same watts.
If you run the engine side at 24v including bow thrusters and windlasses, the saving in cable costs alone are significant.