Incandescent vs LED. Straight Swap ?

[Roberto]

No point in changing the steaming light!

I kept incandescent deck navigation light as well, I mainly use them while under engine or during final approaches, otherwise it's tricolour only. Ok very occasionally under sail with fog, though it's mostly windless with engine on.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Yes, but who in the UK verifies that the nav lights on your boat do comply with Col Regs Rule 22 and what equipment is used to check the colour, sector angles and visibility range.

I was pointing out your error in the claim you made in a previous post.

Who checks? In a past life I worked for a UK company that charted leisure vessels, in the UK. These vessels were coded to allow that to happen. The surveyor that performs the initial, annual or 5 survey, that is approved by the MCA and certifying authority, so not any old yacht survey, checks. The MCA have guidance notes, issued to surveyors for inspecting navigation lights. My experience is that fading, crazing, damage and misalignment were checked and on occasion resulted in a correction note. So, in the leisure space, for coded vessels, there are checks made.

Of course, as you are probably implying, for leisure boats that are not coded, no one does. However, indirectly, through an insurance survey, initial or, say, 10 yearly, a surveyor would be expected to check for obvious defects. Even then, highly unlikely, to check if LEDs are fitted or not and in my boat ownership, but a cracked lens has been noted.

I don’t think this is an issue for anyone as most leisure sailors will have adequate lights that do the job, even if degraded.

 

[noelex]

I can’t imagine many standard tricolours are compliant for more than a year or two regardless whether that be due to crazing, fading, or replacement filament bulb that’s not OEM certified.

As you correctly point out, the crazing (and subsequent light scattering) is something that should be periodically checked, although a lifespan of comfortably more than year or two can be expected.

Speculation about the condition of the navigation lights was raised in detail in the official report into the 2006 collision involving the yacht Ouzo. Unfortunately, the vessel sank (with the loss of three lives) so examination of the actual tricolour light was not possible, but the report concluded that the housing was over 25 years old and some crazing was likely a factor in the accident.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I was pointing out your error in the claim you made in a previous post.

Who checks? In a past life I worked for a UK company that charted leisure vessels, in the UK. These vessels were coded to allow that to happen. The surveyor that performs the initial, annual or 5 survey, that is approved by the MCA and certifying authority, so not any old yacht survey, checks. The MCA have guidance notes, issued to surveyors for inspecting navigation lights. My experience is that fading, crazing, damage and misalignment were checked and on occasion resulted in a correction note. So, in the leisure space, for coded vessels, there are checks made.

Of course, as you are probably implying, for leisure boats that are not coded, no one does. However, indirectly, through an insurance survey, initial or, say, 10 yearly, a surveyor would be expected to check for obvious defects. Even then, highly unlikely, to check if LEDs are fitted or not and in my boat ownership, but a cracked lens has been noted.

I don’t think this is an issue for anyone as most leisure sailors will have adequate lights that do the job, even if degraded.

For coded or commensal boats tph checks are more stringent and broken lenses or globes must be changes but as to colour, angle of display and range not looked at all.

The main dispute with LED replacement bulbs in this thread is the possible noncompliance with the requirements and original specification.

This is the real issue. Is there any real evidence that noncompliance with the strict regulations have resulted in and convictions for noncompliance, even when an incident resulting in loss of life was a result

 

[RunAgroundHard]

There is no “real issue” with LEDs.

 

[rogerthebodger]

actual tricolour light was not possible, but the report concluded that the housing was over 25 years old and some crazing was likely a factor in the accident.

Iss you say no examination could be done so this is pure speculation, and no facts exist only supposition

 

[noelex]

Iss you say no examination could be done so this is pure speculation, and no facts exist only supposition

Yes, agreed. The speculation about the tricolour light occupied four pages of the report, so they explored the issue in some detail. The report stated with some certainty that the light had never been replaced, but exactly how they came to this conclusion without talking to the deceased owner is unclear. They did examine lights of a similar age installed on other yachts and even included photos of these lights in the report.

The only established fact is that "The lookout on the ferry had not seen the yacht until it was very close ahead", so the condition of the navigation lights was of obvious importance even if the exact condition of these lights could not be definitively examined.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Yes, agreed. The speculation about the tricolour light occupied four pages of the report, so they explored the issue in some detail. The report stated with some certainty that the light had never been replaced, but exactly how they came to this conclusion without talking to the deceased owner is unclear. They did examine lights of a similar age installed on other yachts and even included photos of these lights in the report.

The only established fact is that "The lookout on the ferry had not seen the yacht until it was very close ahead", so the condition of the navigation lights was of obvious importance.

If cause the brightness of the lights on Ozuo is also of importance. My conclusion is that my LED's are brighter than the incandescent bulbs I replaced and even if the lenses of crazed a bright light would still be brighter than incandescent.

My LED's have a input voltage range of 10 to 30 Vdc so if my battery was low, it would still show a brighter light than an incandescent under the same voltage and of because there could be no view on the voltage driving the incandescent bulbs on Ozuo if there was any knowledge of those facts

Too many outstanding questions. IMHO

 

[Refueler]

The Ouzo report is a sad collection of supposition unfortunately and no-one really knows what happened that night. Even to the extent - it was never proven beyond a doubt that the Ferry had hit Ouzo. Of course logic and circumstances lead one to accept that it was the Ferry.

Second - the Ouzo report goes on to great length about Radar Reflectors ... eclipsing by huge amount any mention of nav lights.

I therefore suggest that Ouzo Report is a poor example to try prove any point about nav lights.

 

[rogerthebodger]

The Ouzo report is a sad collection of supposition unfortunately and no-one really knows what happened that night. Even to the extent - it was never proven beyond a doubt that the Ferry had hit Ouzo. Of course logic and circumstances lead one to accept that it was the Ferry.

Second - the Ouzo report goes on to great length about Radar Reflectors ... eclipsing by huge amount any mention of nav lights.

I therefore suggest that Ouzo Report is a poor example to try prove any point about nav lights.

Thats the point I was trying to make but you made the point better than me

 

[Refueler]

If cause the brightness of the lights on Ozuo is also of importance. My conclusion is that my LED's are brighter than the incandescent bulbs I replaced and even if the lenses of crazed a bright light would still be brighter than incandescent.

My LED's have a input voltage range of 10 to 30 Vdc so if my battery was low, it would still show a brighter light than an incandescent under the same voltage and of because there could be no view on the voltage driving the incandescent bulbs on Ozuo if there was any knowledge of those facts

Too many outstanding questions. IMHO

Not only that LED will work over a greater voltage range ... but also that they require significantly less amps - allowing voltage to stay reasonable for longer ... less voltage drop.

 

[noelex]

My LED's have a input voltage range of 10 to 30 Vdc so if my battery was low, it would still show a brighter light than an incandescent under the same voltage and of because there could be no view on the voltage driving the incandescent bulbs on Ozuo if there was any knowledge of those facts

There are many advantages to LED navigation lights when compared to incandescent alternatives. They are a more sensible choice, but the question remains do you fit an LED "globe" to a housing designed for an incandescent globe or do you spend considerably more money on a dedicated marine LED fixture.

I think this is something each owner has to decide for themselves.

 

[lustyd]

although a lifespan of comfortably more than year or two can be expected.

But not for the colour to fade, which many here are getting very hung up on.

The main dispute with LED replacement bulbs in this thread is the possible noncompliance with the requirements and original specification

ANY replacement bulbs. I've repeatedly said this - unless you buy the OEM replacement bulb from the manufacturer of your light fitting it loses certification regardless, LED isn't any more of a consideration than any other aftermarket bulb.

 

[lustyd]

but the question remains do you fit an LED "globe" to a housing designed for an incandescent globe or do you spend considerably more money on a dedicated marine LED fixture.

100% get a filament housing and fit an LED bulb to it. The LED fixtures are dangerous and should not be allowed near a boat in my opinion until the expiry issue is sorted.

 

[Refueler]

There are many advantages to LED navigation lights when compared to incandescent alternatives. They are a more sensible choice, but the question remains do you fit an LED "globe" to a housing designed for an incandescent globe or do you spend considerably more money on a dedicated marine LED fixture.

I think this is something each owner has to decide for themselves.

But you do not buy an LED Globe .... you buy the vertical stand array which has multiple LED emitters around it

 

[rogerthebodger]

There are many advantages to LED navigation lights when compared to incandescent alternatives. They are a more sensible choice, but the question remains do you fit an LED "globe" to a housing designed for an incandescent globe or do you spend considerably more money on a dedicated marine LED fixture.

I think this is something each owner has to decide for themselves.

Yes that is the question but how do we normal boatowners know except by excepting the manufacturers say so that they comply with the colour, display angle and range as required by the legislation /requirements.

We don't as we have no way of really testing them and as I said the authorities don't either

 

[noelex]

until the expiry issue is sorted.

This only applies to Aqua Signal LED navigation lights.

All other manufacturers (as far as I can tell) generally have an "end of life indicator", but no other manufacturers disable the light when this point is reached.

 

[Refueler]

There is only one area I can say I have known guys to check bulbs in lamps ... and that is Vehicle Annual Inspection over here.

Technical inspection here is a serious affair and they not only check angles and cut off of headlamps / driving - Fog lights and High Intensity lights - but compliance with max output and colour. If they detect over the max - which usual LED replacements give ... and / or the 'blue' 'green' bulbs some fit - your vehicle fails and you have to go away and fix it ... be re-inspected ...
I've even failed because one of my cars - Volvo XC70 - the dipped beam bulbs can be installed 180 degrees out ..... making the light shine higher by a few degrees. I had to flip the bulbs round !

 

[rogerthebodger]

100% get a filament housing and fit an LED bulb to it. The LED fixtures are dangerous and should not be allowed near a boat in my opinion until the expiry issue is sorted.

The interesting point is that incandescent bulbs have an expiry date.

In the early days or incandescent bulbs, the life of the bulb was too long as the manufacturers we not selling replacements, so they got together and reduced the life of the incandescent bulbs. Tis all about the current and heat produced by the filament over driving / heating reduces the life which is the same as most electrical equipment. The classic is the planed obsolesce ( design for a defined life)

 

[rogerthebodger]

This only applies to Aqua Signal LED navigation lights.

All other manufacturers (as far as I can tell) have an "end of life indicator" (usually), but do not disable the light when this point is reached.

So the manufacturers admit they are building in planed obsolesce into the LED nav lights to ensure further sales.

This is clearly a of costing the punters more money and another reason to avoid the mainstream LED navigation light manufacturers and buy replacement bulbs. I am very happy with the ones I have manly due to the increased range