Incandescent vs LED. Straight Swap ?

[noelex]

And you really think using an LED instead of filament bulb is going to be considered a contributory factor ??

In most countries deaths due to accidents are investigated by the coroner who would make that determination, but having the correct certified marine navigation lights removes one source of possible blame.

Of course there are plenty of certified LED navigation lights.

 

[lustyd]

but having the correct certified marine navigation lights removes one source of possible blame.

So they’ll check for the OEM bulb that was certified too?

Of course there are plenty of certified LED navigation lights.

Those are a total scam. When mine need replacing I’ll get a filament one and swap the bulbs. Utterly dangerous to disable safety devices on a timer.

 

[Refueler]

In most countries deaths due to accidents are investigated by the coroner who would make that determination, but having the correct certified marine navigation lights removes one source of possible blame.

Of course there are plenty of certified LED navigation lights.

How many RTA's are there and with cars that majority have non certified parts fitted ?? How many of those RTA's have those parts brought up as contributory factors ? I suggest to you ZERO - unless the part has FAILED and actually been a contributory factor ...

 

[noelex]

Those are a total scam. When mine need replacing I’ll get a filament one and swap the bulbs. Utterly dangerous to disable safety devices on a timer.

I agree. We have an LED anchor light that needed replacement because it was programmed to turn off after a certain number of hours by the manufacturer (Aqua Signal). We do anchor a great deal, but this programmed death is not the right approach in my view.

 

[lustyd]

Not just not the right approach, it’s outright dangerous!

 

[Ian_Rob]

Nothing wrong with a photo cell controlled dusk to dawn, anchor light bulb………

 

[William_H]

The problem with LED is that mostly the actual diode bulbs have a one direction of radiation and often have a magnifier lens at the output to give a radiation angle of typically 30 or 40 degrees. Note an incandescent bulb has a radiation pattern almost omni directional. So to emulate an incandescent bulb they fit LEDs around the circumference and often another LED on top. So this is fine for something like an anchor light needing light all round but even then the LED pointing upwards is redundant.
However when it comes to navigation lights the demands are critical. So in a cabin side nav light the light is required to point forward and outwards to a cut off point. The multi LED bulb replacement has a source from a large area so cut off becomes indistinct. The sorce for incandescent is tiny often the width of the filament.
For a mast top port starboard stern the same large area source becomes a problem. You can get a special bulb with white red and green LEDs all pointing in the right direction to give hopefully a reasonable light arc distinction. This type would be recommended.
Add to this some concern re white LED not giving the correct colours through the coloured lens and you can see it is not so simple to simply replace an incandescent bulb with a white LED bulb.
Far more recommended is a purpose built LED nav light fitting. ol'will

 

[Boathook]

The problem with LED is that mostly the actual diode bulbs have a one direction of radiation and often have a magnifier lens at the output to give a radiation angle of typically 30 or 40 degrees. Note an incandescent bulb has a radiation pattern almost omni directional. So to emulate an incandescent bulb they fit LEDs around the circumference and often another LED on top. So this is fine for something like an anchor light needing light all round but even then the LED pointing upwards is redundant.
However when it comes to navigation lights the demands are critical. So in a cabin side nav light the light is required to point forward and outwards to a cut off point. The multi LED bulb replacement has a source from a large area so cut off becomes indistinct. The sorce for incandescent is tiny often the width of the filament.
For a mast top port starboard stern the same large area source becomes a problem. You can get a special bulb with white red and green LEDs all pointing in the right direction to give hopefully a reasonable light arc distinction. This type would be recommended.
Add to this some concern re white LED not giving the correct colours through the coloured lens and you can see it is not so simple to simply replace an incandescent bulb with a white LED bulb.
Far more recommended is a purpose built LED nav light fitting. ol'will

Purchasing the LED bulbs through boatlamps.co.uk gets round the problems you mention. The have multiple LED's that are coloured to match the sectors.
When I fitted my new masthead unit The crew didn't tell me that it was 90 degrees out. Nor did any one else, and I did a fair amount of night sailing for the 2 years until I noticed ! So it really means that people just see a light and adjust course a bit.

 

[ghostlymoron2]

You could change the interior lights as well. I did on my little Leisure 20 has a great effect on battery consumption. The original fittings were fitted with two 10w festoon bulbs, I found that a single LED bulb was more than adequate - warm white gives a better light.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

The issue of LEDs has been discussed at length on here a few times, including the MCAs advice for vessels required to comply with SOLAS and these that do not.

I have summarised what I think is relevant to this thread, some of which supports lustyd's comments.

From Trend Force, which provides market intelligence to the LED industry: -

UK Maritime Agency Advises Against Using White LED Retrofits in Tricolor Navigational Lights in Vessels​

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) in UK has sent a notice recently asking boat and vessel owners to refrain from using white LED retrofits in traditional tungsten filament tricolor navigational lights.
Replacing filament bulbs with white LEDs in tricolor navigational lights could result in vessels not being insured.
Colored light fittings designed to use filament bulbs are not suitable for LEDs, claim the Cruising Association’s Regulation and Technical Services team (RATS), and therefore in the event of an incident could invalidate insurance.
White LEDs do not emit the wavelengths required to correctly illuminate the red and green sectors, and, as a result the colors observed are totally outside of the IMO specifications.
In addition, a tungsten filament bulb has a single vertical wire as the light source, whereas LEDs emit light path angles greater than the permitted 2 degree cut-off limit between tricolor sectors. A boat’s heading will therefore be unclear to another vessel over a significant arc, and, the merging beams will give strange colors as they overlap.
This issue does not affect navigation light fittings designed to take LED bulbs. The MCA has issued a Guidance Note highlighting these problems, and a warning not to use LED white replacement bulbs in equipment designed for filament bulb use.
The Cruising Association’s RATS will be at the Southampton Boat Show on the 11th of September with a navigation light to demonstrate the issues.
The full MCA notice can be viewed here.

Has anyone seen the CA Navigation Light demonstration that demonstrates the issues, particularly at the boat show this year? Can you advise what you saw.

The MCA Notice MGN 393 (M+F), Navigation Light Units: Maintenance and the Use of New Technology Light Sources, such as Light Emitting Diodes (LEDs), as Navigation Lights on SOLAS and non-SOLAS Vessels.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/440759/MGN_393.pdf

1.4 Navigation lights fitted to UK registered commercial vessels must be of a type approved by a nominated body (the MCA’s Instructions for the Guidance of Surveyors - Survey of Lights and Signalling Equipment, 1.1, 1.2 (Statutory Provisions) & 2.3.2). Caution is advised if LED light sources are retrofitted to existing lanterns as this may invalidate the type approval for that lantern. Manufacturers’ advice should be sought before substitutions are made.
1.5 Recreational and small craft owners should satisfy themselves that their vessels fully comply with the requirements for the carriage of navigation lights and that any replacement light sources for incandescent lights perform within the requirements set out in COLREGs, and are suitable if fitted to sailing vessels.

• Replacement items, such as lamps or new technology light sources, should be identical or equivalent to the original.
• Chromatic accuracy of any replacement light source, when placed behind a lens, should comply with COLREGs in all respects.
• Before the installation of new technology light sources, such as LEDs, in existing lanterns the manufacturers of the mounting/lighting unit should be consulted to assess suitability.
• If there is any doubt as to the suitability or compatibility of “replacement lamps” with the lantern, then the replacement item should not be used.
• If in any doubt about the compliance of the unit, when assembled, if possible seek advice from the manufacturer of the lantern rather than the supplier of any replacement light source.

Definitions ...
... 6.5 Navigation Light (NL) means the following lights:
.1 masthead light, sidelights, sternlight, towing light, all-round light, flashing light as defined in Rule 21 of COLREGs;

4.2.2 Within the prescribed sector in which the minimum luminous intensity is required by section 9 of Annex I to COLREGs, the horizontal intensity distribution of the light should be uniform in such a way that the measured minimum and maximum luminous intensity values (in candelas) do not differ by more than a factor of 1.5, to avoid luminous intensity changes which may result in the appearance of a flashing light for vessels not less than 12 m in length.

4.3 Special requirements for lights using LEDs
The luminous intensity of LEDs gradually decreases while the electricity consumption remains unchanged. The rate of decrease of luminous intensity depends on the output of LEDs and temperatures of LEDs. To prevent shortage of luminous intensity of LEDs:
.1 An alarm function should be activated to notify the Officer of the Watch that the luminous intensity of the light reduces below the level required by COLREGs;
Or
.2 LEDs should only be used within the lifespan (practical term of validity) specified by the manufacturer to maintain the necessary luminous intensity of LEDs. The lifespan of LEDs should be determined and clearly notified by the manufacturer based on the appropriate test results on the decrease of luminous intensity of the LEDs under various temperature conditions and on the temperature condition of LEDs in the light during operation, taking the appropriate margin into account.

As leisure sailors, at the end of the day, just be aware of the choices you make, the potential impact and the requirements that you need to take to minimise and degradation of performance.

 

[lustyd]

As leisure sailors, at the end of the day, just be aware of the choices you make, the potential impact and the requirements that you need to take to minimise and degradation of performance

As a leisure sailor I’m well aware how much brighter and easy to see my lights are with LED. I’m also well aware that, had I bought an LED fitting it would switch off after a predetermined life despite being functional.
Warm white LED gives a fine colour and as a replacement bulb is every bit as certified as the non OEM filament bulb replacements in the chandlery.

 

[rogerthebodger]

As a leisure sailor I’m well aware how much brighter and easy to see my lights are with LED. I’m also well aware that, had I bought an LED fitting it would switch off after a predetermined life despite being functional.
Warm white LED gives a fine colour and as a replacement bulb is every bit as certified as the non OEM filament bulb replacements in the chandlery.

Totally agree leisure sailors do not come under MCA or SOLAS so compliance should not be an issue.

An interesting factor where I live, and sail is we have an official inspection every year as a requirement for our certification of out vessel to be seaworthy including the navigation lights.

The only check the is done is that the minimum number of nav lights are working.

No check on colour, range, and angle of display or any other factors.

Also, nav lights on vessels are only required on vessels certified to go to sea during nighttime hours. If the vessel does not have nav lights the vessel is only allowed to go to sea during day light hours so nav lights are not a full legal requirement

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Totally agree leisure sailors do not come under MCA or SOLAS so compliance should not be an issue. …

In the UK they do, to various degrees. In the context of this thread, all navigation lamps shall comply with the Col Regs, see Rule 22, for example.

 

[rogerthebodger]

In the UK they do, to various degrees. In the context of this thread, all navigation lamps shall comply with the Col Regs, see Rule 22, for example.

Yes, but who in the UK verifies that the nav lights on your boat do comply with Col Regs Rule 22 and what equipment is used to check the colour, sector angles and visibility range.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

Yes, but who in the UK verifies that the nav lights on your boat do comply with Col Regs Rule 22 and what equipment is used to check the colour, sector angles and visibility range.

Just wait until you are involved in an "Incident" and the MAIB start checking.
Just like many things you are OK until you get caught

 

[Dellquay13]

No point in changing the steaming light!

There may be call to replace the steaming light as well. I started changing to LED a few at a time, but when I mixed led and incandescent on a circuit, the incandescent must have pulled the parallel voltage down below the threshold for the LEDs which failed to light until the incandescent was removed or replaced. The LEDs then all worked together.
I was using colour corrected LEDs from boatlamps, not unknown brand rubbish from eBay or Amazon.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Just wait until you are involved in an "Incident" and the MAIB start checking.
Just like many things you are OK until you get caught

Well, the MAIB will not investigate any incident on mt vessel and as the same authority would investigate and incident as inspect my boat every year and certificate it as seaworthy there may be some issues as to compliance but like all authorities they do not take accountably for any issues

 

[lustyd]

Just wait until you are involved in an "Incident" and the MAIB start checking.
Just like many things you are OK until you get caught

Considerably more likely a blown incandescent bulb or flat battery from using them would be contributory to an incident. MAIB only care about things that’s are contributory to an incident and they don’t prosecute anyway.
I can’t imagine many standard tricolours are compliant for more than a year or two regardless whether that be due to crazing, fading, or replacement filament bulb that’s not OEM certified.

Do you even know where to source OEM bulbs for your lights? No chandler I’ve been in stocks them as they’re too expensive.

 

[Refueler]

The problem with LED is that mostly the actual diode bulbs have a one direction of radiation and often have a magnifier lens at the output to give a radiation angle of typically 30 or 40 degrees. Note an incandescent bulb has a radiation pattern almost omni directional. So to emulate an incandescent bulb they fit LEDs around the circumference and often another LED on top. So this is fine for something like an anchor light needing light all round but even then the LED pointing upwards is redundant.
However when it comes to navigation lights the demands are critical. So in a cabin side nav light the light is required to point forward and outwards to a cut off point. The multi LED bulb replacement has a source from a large area so cut off becomes indistinct. The sorce for incandescent is tiny often the width of the filament.
For a mast top port starboard stern the same large area source becomes a problem. You can get a special bulb with white red and green LEDs all pointing in the right direction to give hopefully a reasonable light arc distinction. This type would be recommended.
Add to this some concern re white LED not giving the correct colours through the coloured lens and you can see it is not so simple to simply replace an incandescent bulb with a white LED bulb.
Far more recommended is a purpose built LED nav light fitting. ol'will

Yachts : The correct incandescent filament is a spiral wound in the push-twist bulb, a straight long filament in a 'festoon' and that produces light output throughout the height of the spiral / wire filament.
Ships use Squirrel Cage filament bulbs.

The reason is to have light distributed as even and wide as possible to allow the actual light casing / lens to do its job.

 

[Refueler]

Just wait until you are involved in an "Incident" and the MAIB start checking.
Just like many things you are OK until you get caught

Your original comment was good in context of conformity - but then was ruined by this insistence of yours about MAIB checking if you have correct bulb !!

I think they have better things to look at when investigating casualties.